Are You an Introvert – or Just Stuck in Your Comfort Zone?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to imperfectly honest Kayla here. And what if some of the things we think are just who we are are actually habits we've built to keep ourselves comfortable or safe? That's the question at the heart of this episode, which Elizabeth and I explore through the book. Sorry I'm late. I didn't want to come by Jessica Pan. The book follows Pan, a self described shintrovert, which is her way of describing a shy, ins introvert with social anxiety as she spends a year intentionally doing things that make her uncomfortable. Things like talking to strangers, accepting invitations, hosting dinner parties, and generally just pushing herself to live a little more like an extrovert. But what I appreciate most about this episode and my book club recap with Elizabeth is that our conversation. And honestly, the book itself isn't really about whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. It's. It's about the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and whether those stories are actually serving us. Because sometimes saying no truly is exactly what we need. And sometimes I'm just an introvert or that's not really my thing. Might really be fear, habit, people pleasing, or simply a preference we've never stopped to question. Elizabeth and I talk about social anxiety, the energy we spend worrying about disappointing other people, people talking to strangers, getting out of our routines, and how some of the most meaningful experiences in our lives can happen on the other side of discomfort. And we keep coming back to one question. Are you honoring your energy or are you using your comfort zone as an excuse? So as you listen, maybe ask yourself what part of who you think you are might actually just be a habit you're ready to challenge? Let's get into it. [00:02:04] Speaker B: This isn't imperfectly honest. I'm Elizabeth, and after about four decades, I'm shifting from the person I always thought I should be to the person I really want to be, in part because I've learned to be honest both with myself and just about everybody I encounter. It's not always perfect. Sometimes it's a rocky road. But I'm learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might learn something too. Hey, listeners. Kayla Gorski, our chief creative officer, and I have been reading the book. Sorry I'm late. I didn't want to come. The author is Jessica Pan, a lifelong introvert with social anxiety who commits to spending one year living like an extrovert. And it's funny because she says she's living her year of a nightmare rather than an adventure. And the purpose of this experiment was not to become an extrovert. It was to take a year to talk to strangers, host dinner parties, and say yes to invitations that she otherwise would not say yes to. To explore the question how much of we. What we think is our personality is actually habit, fear, or avoidance. And as you know, I love deep questions, and I think this is an important question for me to ask. And I thought this might be something that you'd like to ask yourself and that maybe you might learn something or just enjoy hearing Kayla and I exploring this question. So here we are. Kayla, thanks for being here. [00:03:43] Speaker A: Here we are. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me and thank you for picking up the book and giving it a read. It was very fun to dive into it alongside you. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Well, it was a big step. Step for me because I normally don't admit this publicly, but I actually really struggle to pay attention long enough to get through a book. And I only get through about one book a year if I'm lucky. So you mean a lot to me, as you might imagine from that. Well, I'm glad that you challenged me on this, so thank you. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Well. And I think it's a testament to the author, Jessica Pan's writing. I mean, I was drawn to this book right away by the title. I'm sorry I'm late. I didn't want to come. It just makes me laugh. There's an honesty and a truthfulness to that, but also just a bit of humor and some levity. And I just loved the exploration of this topic that I've heard you ask so many people that we've met and been around socially. Are you an introvert or are you an extrovert? And seen how you sort of navigate that. And it just felt like a really relevant and kind of fun and interesting question to go a little deeper on. [00:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And people might be thinking, oh, I'm an extrovert, so this conversation isn't for me. And I actually don't think that's the case. Do you agree? [00:05:14] Speaker A: I absolutely agree. And I think one of the biggest takeaways I had reading this book was there are so many layers to. To introvert and extrovert. It's really so much more than two categories. And being so sharply black and white, because Jessica Pan, the author, describes herself as a shintrovert, a shy introvert. And I think that so many people will often equate that shyness with introverts and that type of behavior. But I myself, I define myself as an outgoing introvert. I do not gain a lot of energy in Big groups. I really need solo time to be energized and inspired and really stay. Stay whole. [00:06:04] Speaker B: I am the same. And I bet most people guess that we're extroverts. Do you think that's right? [00:06:11] Speaker A: Probably because I do think that we're both outgoing and confident. But also when we do eventually say yes, although it might be a journey to get there, sometimes, once we arrive, I think we both commit. And at least for myself, if I'm saying yes to a social thing, then I will be curious, I will be present. I will really lean into that moment. I may bail a little early once I feel like there's nothing left in the tank. But when I am there, I really am committed to being just fully, fully present and engaged. Do you feel the same? [00:06:50] Speaker B: I do. And I am not at all shy. I am totally comfortable going up to most people and just starting a conversation. And I get tired both in groups and also just in conversation with another person. Even if it's somebody that I know really closely and I feel completely comfortable with. I just have a limit to my social energy. [00:07:18] Speaker A: I mean, even. Even us, Elizabeth, we've been on trails and hikes together, and there have been points where we'll have, I don't know, maybe 15 minutes or so, and we both kind of look at each other and just go, yeah, I have a little spent. And then we'll kind of just walk in, in quiet and with our own thoughts a little bit. A little bit more. And I just so appreciate people in my life who can recognize that and not. Not take it personally, but it as. Wow, that's. That's just very. That's just honest. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Hmm. That's so nice. [00:07:54] Speaker A: Well, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, but I feel like for our listeners, before we get too far, we should probably define just that sort of overarching difference between introverts and extroverts just to help set the tone. [00:08:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. That seems like a very obvious thing to do that I miss, so thank you. [00:08:14] Speaker A: No, we. I think we both just got excited to chat and dive right in so listeners forgive us in our enthusiasm. [00:08:24] Speaker B: So do you have a definition off the top of your head? [00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. Well, Jessica lays it out in the book, at the very beginning of the book, and she talks about how really the main difference is how people manage their energy, where introverts recharge through quiet solitude, just that time alone, whereas extroverts gain energy from social connections, from being around other people. It fills them up rather than leaves them Feeling depleted. And so I think that's just a pretty basic definition, but really that core difference that is sort of universally accepted. [00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And she talks a lot. Not just about being an introvert and an extrovert, but also about social anxiety. So do you experience social anxiety and what does that mean to you? [00:09:18] Speaker A: I experience it constantly. Constantly? Yeah. Even with very close friends where I will often pause and ask, you know, am I being curious enough? Am I being interesting enough in this conversation? Am I being fully present enough and not caught in my own questions and head and things? Am I remembering different things that they told me and following up appropriately? And then with people I don't know, it's just a. Just a low. A low hum that feels like it's always kind of present. And in some moments, it's certainly a lot more quiet, but it always feels like it's kind of there in the background. Yeah. It's not ruling my life by any means, but it is a. Yeah, it is just. [00:10:09] Speaker B: It's. [00:10:09] Speaker A: It almost feels like fuel at this point. That does propel me. Propel me forward in. In many ways. [00:10:16] Speaker B: But. Yeah. [00:10:18] Speaker A: What about. What about you? Do you experience social anxiety? [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's funny because I do experience some of those things that you just mentioned, but I didn't classify those things as social anxiety. I think the thing that I experience that's most similar to you is constantly wondering, is the way that I'm engaging, quote, unquote, the right way. I'm wondering, are people getting tired of talking to me? Am I connecting in the way that I want to? What are they thinking about me as I'm connecting? And I don't know that I thought about that as anxiety until you pointed it out, because I am very confident, and I feel almost certain that most people who spend time with me are glad that they did so and walk away with something unique and interesting. And so I never really thought of myself as having anxiety around that. But I do like to make sure that people are comfortable and that people can open up in the way that they want to. And so I guess I have some anxiety about providing that space to do so in conversation. Yeah. [00:11:28] Speaker A: And maybe it's not huge, overwhelming anxiety that's taking you out of your, you know, out of your body and off of your path. But it sounds like. Yeah, like it's. It's present for you in some capacity as well. Is that. I guess, is it social anxiety or is it just a wanting to be perceived and show up in a way that makes someone else feel Seen and feel good. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah, possibly. I think for me, something that definitely feels like anxiety is I feel anxious about whether I'm going to want to be in the situation once the situation arises. So when I get an invitation to, let's say, go to a comedy show on a Saturday night, I want to do that in the moment when I'm being asked. But then I start to feel anxious. What else do I have going on on Saturday? Am I going to be tired? Am I going to get a better offer? Am I going to want to do something totally different? And for me, the biggest anxiety that I experience around social stuff is just trying to predict how I'm going to feel in the moment. [00:12:44] Speaker A: That is such a good call. I think, too, being an introvert, I have very little problem staying home and reading or, you know, watching a show or something on a Saturday night, cozied up on the couch with my dog and my cat. And I really, it. It does feel. It feels good for me to do that. I genuinely enjoy it. And so there are these moments where that social anxiety kicks in of, well, this offer that's on the table, is it going to feel better than this moment right now? [00:13:19] Speaker B: Right. And I like to just go with the flow of my own energy. When I feel like I want to be active and on my feet, I want to do that. I don't want to feel like, oh, my gosh, I need to move my body and then know that I've been committed to sit in a living room with someone to talk, for instance. Also, I get tired, as we talked about after I spend a lot of time with people, and so I feel anxiety that I might get tired. And as we're saying all these things, I'm realizing that the overarching theme is that we don't like to disappoint people and that we're afraid of committing to something and then ultimately having to disappoint. [00:14:03] Speaker A: Yeah, there's some people pleasing in there, for sure. [00:14:06] Speaker B: What is your best personal story that you thought of as you were relating to this book? [00:14:15] Speaker A: My best personal. You know, I think that there were so many examples that Jessica shared in her journey of saying yes. That made me realize that there are so many unexpected gems that truly live on the other side of discomfort. And when I can be courageous enough to push through that discomfort and work with it instead of against it, there are some really incredible things that can happen. And in reading her book, I was reminded of a storytelling event that I participated in here in Bozeman. And goodness, this was Back in the spring at this point. So it was well before reading this book. But it was such a. It was such a stretch of my. My comfort level. I was on a stage in front of a hundred strangers, sharing a personal story. And in different iterations of my career, I've had no problem being in front of an audience and presenting and in sharing something. But this felt so different given the personal story attached to it and the way that I just anticipated judgment from others and some critiques and things creeping in in a way that would be maybe a little bit less about the how I was performing on the stage and more about the what I was. Was sharing and things like that. And I gotta tell you, once I got up on that stage and just started going, it just flowed. And it was such a rush. And I hope that I can do another one of these storytelling events down the road because it was just genuinely so much fun. And the way that it sparked connection afterwards with people coming up to me and sharing similar stories or experiences or commenting on different aspects of my story, it was just. It was just really surprising to me. I did not anticipate that at all. And I was so proud of myself for being able to push through that discomfort and really just stand on that growth edge. [00:16:41] Speaker B: And I bet no one in that audience, because I was in that audience, had any idea that you were nervous whatsoever. You seemed so natural up there. [00:16:54] Speaker A: Well, thank you. [00:16:55] Speaker B: Thank you. So she talks a lot about talking to strangers, that she put herself out there to do that. And I found that part of the book really interesting. And so I'm curious, do you make an effort to talk to strangers? And how has that gone for you? [00:17:15] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. And I feel like after reading this book, I started to talk to strangers more. [00:17:25] Speaker B: Same here. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah, because I was just more aware of it. And I was just. I was just in San Francisco last weekend and I had this moment where I realized when I am a tourist someplace, when I'm just traveling, I am so much more apt to talk to anyone and everyone and strangers. And I am so less likely to talk to somebody at my own neighborhood grocery store or walking down the street. And I. It just. It really made me pause and go, huh? What is it about that that opens up. That opens up the aperture and makes me more social? Do you feel that as well? [00:18:11] Speaker B: Not until you mentioned that. Yes, I do feel that. I think there might be something about feeling like you're going to see the people again when they're at your neighborhood grocery store versus when you're out of your own element. Plus I also tend to just have heightened senses when I am traveling out of my normal routine versus an everyday life. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's what's so funny about that. I mean, because I agree with you, but I'm like, why wouldn't I make the effort to talk to the person that I would see on a regular beta, on a regular cadence and start to develop a bit of a rapport with versus the barista that I am most likely never going to encounter again in my life? But I had a five minute conversation with, you know, in line. It's just, it's a, it was a funny, it was a funny moment of reflection and I haven't necessarily come out of it with this big aha. Just an awareness and I think a desire to want to shift that a bit. [00:19:16] Speaker B: I love that. And she also talked a lot about the research around how talking to strangers actually increases people's happiness. And I always had this story that I'm going to bother people if I start talking to them. And, and they did some research on that and found that it's rarely the case and I am rarely bothered by someone talking with me. How do you feel about that? [00:19:42] Speaker A: You know, again, I feel like I'm more open to it when I'm traveling, but less. I noticed that my energy is so different. Like if I'm working from a coffee shop here at home, I really focused on my laptop. I'm not looking up, I'm not making. I'm actually actively avoiding eye contact with people as opposed to inviting it. I'm not just throwing out smiles just to be kind. I probably have a little bit of a scowl on my face. So I do, I think I give off this don't talk to me and am a little less open to it in, in many instances when I am at home. Whereas, you know, it this. Just to continue the example from this past weekend, I was so open to talking to absolutely every single person that I encountered on the sidewalk, at cafes, like out dancing at a restaurant, like just everywhere. So as we're sharing, it's just waking me up to some of my, my patterns. And I'm just wondering how much my desire for efficiency and routine is maybe preventing me from connection. Have you thought about that? [00:21:02] Speaker B: Oh, I think about that a lot. My desire for routine definitely prevents me from connection. So it's just one example. Part of the reason why I don't like to say yes to certain social invitations is because I like to feel really good the next morning. And get up and go for a run or whatever. And a lot of times my fitness routine keeps me from saying yes to things. Also, I like to just feel I'm checking things off my checklist. And actually I was thinking about this this morning. So my friend John, who is really close to me, we're like family, had a knee surgery recently and I've been helping him out. And I have this huge to do list because I'm going to be gone for 10 days. And so I also wanted to add to that to do list things that I wanted to do to help him before I left. And just realized in the process that really the thing that I could probably do to help him most is to just spend time with him and be in connection with him because you get lonely and depressed after surgery. And that felt like it was out of my routine and stepping away from my to do list. And so. So I deprioritize it until I kind of caught myself. Yeah. Also, I just think your point about everyday life getting in the way of connection. I read this blog post the other day from this woman, Kaylee Klemp, who wrote the book the 5050 Marriage, with her husband. And they have great relationship advice that comes out. And one of them was to think consciously about how you avoid the blur of life. And I think we just get so caught into everyday things that things just become a blur. And this book of helping me think about how seemingly innocuous everyday interactions could actually be an opportunity to push your growth edge, meet someone new, get out of your routine, all these things is something that I've been thinking a lot about. How to get myself out of the rut of getting lost in the blur of life. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I like that. And I think it's helpful for me when I'm trying to challenge different ways that I'm showing up is to think back on moments when I've behaved in the way that I might be seeking a little bit, and to essentially be my own expander to prove to myself like, you're capable of this. You've done it in the past. Here's an example of that. So just knowing that you are really great at talking to strangers, but you maybe aren't always as open to them talking to you in return as you start to just shift that pattern a little bit. Can you think back to one of the best things that has resulted from you talking to strangers? [00:24:08] Speaker B: Yeah. One of my best stories is that I raised most of my venture capital fund from the chairlifts of Vail and part of my strategy was to figure out whether people were worth talking to. And there's a private club. They are called the Vail Mountain Club. And in order to join this club, you have to have a certain amount of money to pay the dues. And so that was a great qualifier because they put stickers on people's skis so that they can identify them at the ski valet. So I was skiing on a Tuesday afternoon. There was hardly anyone there. And this man pulls up next to me in line and has Vail Mountain Club stickers on his skis. And I thought, oh, wow, jackpot. And I didn't want to be awkward about it. And he was a little ways behind me, so I had to sort of wait for him to sync up. So I acted like I was unbuckling my boots to stall a little bit and just thought, all right, get on the chair with this guy. And I just said, sir, would you mind if I rode up with you? And he said, no, not at all. I'd love that. And we get on the chairlift. And I thought to myself, all right, you've got seven minutes to figure out who this guy is and to reel him in. And I. It's always awkward, which is another thing I actually want to come back to. But when you're a woman and you're asking a man to join you on a chairlift, there can be a perception that you're asking because you have a romantic interest versus a professional interest or purely platonic interest. And so I was nervous about toeing that line, and I just thought, you really want to talk to this guy. It's not the worst thing in the world if he thinks that you have a romantic interest to start, Just lean in. So I did, and I immediately started asking him questions. And turns out he had been in the investment industry for a long time, and he was really connected in Vail. And he ended up being a mentor to me, a mentor for our fund. He helped me raise a lot of that fund. And now, a decade later, I still work with him on various things. And he's become such a close friend. And I always think about that. It was so awkward. You know, he's actually in his 80s, and so he's 40 years older than me. And it was uncomfortable to ask this man to join me on a chairlift. And I'm so glad I did. And he would say the same, that he was so glad that I did. So you just never quite know what you're gonna get. [00:27:06] Speaker A: No, that's a great story. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it, it's just, it's such a, it just makes me think, do you think it was awkward for him or are we fabricating the awkwardness? [00:27:19] Speaker B: He has told me after the fact that he was kind of wondering, what's this girl's intention? And you know, I think part of why it has become awkward is because it's no longer our social norm to just talk to people. It shouldn't be awkward. [00:27:38] Speaker A: The fact that you needed to even have an intention behind that and that he met your just very innocent, let's share a chairlift kind of offer with skepticism is really telling to me. It makes, it actually makes me kind of sad that we go through life thinking that somebody's gotta have this end game and a goal and it really could, could have been as simple. I mean, yes, you kind of did in that scenario, but you also could have genuinely just been like, I've been skiing solo all day and I'd like to connect with somebody and have a seven minute chat and just let that be enough. [00:28:15] Speaker B: Right. And you know the other thing that I've been thinking as we've been having this conversation on the topic of being imperfectly honest, sometimes we're afraid, need to ask people if they want to engage because we're afraid of bothering them. And I think that that's taking more than 100% of our own responsibility. Everyone has the right to say no. Everyone has the right to put up a boundary. Going back to your coffee shop example, I do sometimes worry about interrupting people when they're in flow and focus. And again, that might not be my responsibility. Their responsibility might be to say, you know, I appreciate that you'd like to talk and I'm really in flow right now, so I'm going to decline the opportunity. That should be okay. [00:29:07] Speaker A: Well and truly, if you're that much in flow and in your routine, maybe go work someplace that's a little more isolated. [00:29:16] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Although I will say I've spent a lot of time working from coffee shops because for some reason that white noise actually helps me focus. Yeah, and I've heard other people say that too. But nonetheless, you know, we are in control of our own willingness to give. We can, we can give what we want and say no to what we don't want. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, to that end, you are someone who I really respect how you follow your energy and will check in and just, just little, little pulse check on where you're at and energetically what you're kind of craving and what will feel best. And so, as someone who's trying to be a little bit better at that myself, I'm curious if you have any advice for me and listeners who might feel similarly on how do you determine between the no's that are honoring yourself and where you're at on energetically, and then the nos that you need to actually overcome because they're just an example of that discomfort that is maybe ruled a little bit more by fear. [00:30:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I think just continuing to ask yourself, why am I saying yes to this? Am I saying yes because I feel obligated to say yes or because I want to say yes? And one of my good friends keeps telling his teenage children that if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. And I love that he's teaching his kids that. I've just tried to really live by that. And, you know, I've had this opportunity now to work with people who live by this idea that you live life out of joy, not out of obligation. And they frequently say to me when I invite them to do something, thank you for them for invitation. I sat with it for a minute and realized that I don't have a full yes. I'm just not feeling a lot of energy that's drawing me toward that. And sometimes there's an explanation and sometimes there's none. And I so appreciate that they do that because it's like it gives me permission to do the same. I don't really need that permission. But the more that you model that behavior with others, I have a story that I'm going to disappoint someone by saying something like that, and it ends up being the opposite for me. It's like a burden has been lifted off my shoulders when somebody else does that to me because it gives me permission to do that to them and inspires me to do it for other people. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Okay. Thank you for that. The pause. I think there's just a lot of value in taking a pause, not rushing to respond all the time. [00:32:01] Speaker B: Right. Those people in my life is that they are more present when they do say yes because they have more energy, they're more intentional about their time, and that I find that we move our conversations past the surface level conversations, and I stay much more engaged. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Quality over quantity. [00:32:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And on that note, do you have any tips for how to move conversations, Especially conversations with the people that you don't know, strangers, or people that you just are getting to know how to move those conversations past small talk? [00:32:44] Speaker A: I find it really helpful to offer something about myself first or in connection with like an observation. It's kind of like to not just assume that a stranger is going to be willing to share, but to show that I am willing to meet them there and do that too. It doesn't need to be like your deepest, darkest secret, but just a little thing of, I don't know, even offering up like an oh, I'm from Montana, or you know, I live by, I live by myself and blah, blah, blah, or just something, something small just so that it really feels like a true two way moment. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And I think it's important to start the conversation with something that doesn't provoke a yes or no answer or a answer that people say without thinking. So for instance, when you start the conversation with how are you? Rarely do people say, actually, I'm having a terrible day. And they talk about it. They just sort of say, good, that's, that's our social norm. So I often ask the question, so what's on your mind today? Instead of how are you? And sometimes, actually more times than not, I get something like, oh, I'm not really thinking about anything at this moment. And I often respond to that with my truth, which is, I don't even know what that's like. My mom mind starts working the moment I get out of bed, but when I respond that way, it often starts a little bit of a conversation. Yep, yep. Another thing that I like to do is to start with some sort of a compliment. And women especially are not that good at actually receiving compliments. So I will often go out of my way to say, wow, I noticed you across the room. And I just have to say, you look great today. I often say something like, I know that putting an outfit together like that doesn't just happen by accident. You really put some intention into that. And I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the work that went into that. And you look really good. And oftentimes that sparks a really interesting conversation. And when they reply with something like, oh, it's not that big of a deal, I just did throw it together, I reply with maybe. And I find that sometimes I am hesitant to really embrace a compliment and accept a compliment because I don't want to be perceived as being conceited. And, and I just want to say I really did mean what I said and would love it if that felt good to you or something like that. Yeah. To just kind of provoke a layer deeper. [00:35:51] Speaker A: Well, I wonder if there's an opportunity to reframe and rather than go down the compliment route. Is there an opportunity to frame it more as an observation? Something like I've been in a coffee line and someone's ordered something and I've just been behind them and I've been like, that's a really strong order. But have you ever tried the breve here? Or whatever? And I'm like, that is indulgent and incredible or whatever and just kind of am cheeky about it. Or we'll see someone and tell them. I couldn't help but notice your smile. It is so beautiful. I hope you have just the best day and then kind of just leave from there, you know, and little, little things like that that are I guess still. Still complement adjacent but maybe come off as a little bit more of an observation where I find that it's can be easier for people to receive things like that. [00:36:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that too. And that feels sort of flirty as well. So I guess to start to close out. I'm just curious whether there's something that you learned from reading this book that felt hard to realize or felt really good to realize, but something that just really dug deep for you. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I think really the. The way that it got me thinking about how I interact with strangers and how I show up with openness when I travel and am certainly more closed when I'm at home, like that just feels like it's in opposition in many ways. And I think the question this book is really inviting me to sit with and that I would invite you and listeners to sit with as well, is if you were to approach your hometown like a tourist, how might you show up differently and how might that feel? And that's something I really want to be conscious of for the. The rest of the year here as we move into October, November, December, that feels like a good time for me to allow myself to be a little bit of a tourist in my hometown. [00:38:09] Speaker B: I love that thought. For me, I realized in reading this that I often use some health issues that I struggled with in the past or just the fact that. That I'm an introvert as an excuse for not wanting to do things socially. And after really sitting with it, I realized that that's not always the case. That sometimes, like we talked about earlier, it's because I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint someone sometimes it's because I really just. Just want to stay home. And I feel like that's an unacceptable answer to say thank you for the invitation. I don't have any other plans. I just frankly don't want to come. So I think it was a realization that even though I've made all these strides and being willing to be honest, that I'm still imperfect about that and have some room to grow. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Well, and that's where. Sorry I'm late. I didn't Want to come is such an apt title something. It is just as simple as that. [00:39:29] Speaker B: Yep. Well, as the theme of this podcast and imperfectly honest, I think this might be a good place to close out and for maybe, maybe. Kayla, what do you think? Could we commit to just trying to be a little bit more honest about this stuff? [00:39:44] Speaker A: Let's do it. Let's start. [00:39:46] Speaker B: All right. [00:39:47] Speaker A: All right. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Thanks, Kayla. I love talking to you, as always. [00:39:51] Speaker A: Thanks, Elizabeth. Thanks, listeners. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Until next time. Bye. Bye.