Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to imperfectly honest. Kayla here. And with Mother's Day upon us, I've been thinking a lot about the relationships that are somehow both the easiest and the hardest to be honest in. I think for many, myself included, Mother's Day is complicated. For some of us, it is pure celebration, while for others, it's grief or distance or relationship that's never quite been so simple. And sometimes it is all of those things at once. In this episode, Elizabeth sits down with friend and fellow climate advocate Max Schader Bashine, who recently lost his mother, for a conversation that's as honest as it is tender. They talk about the lessons she left him, the things he wishes he'd said, and how she shaped the man he's become.
And as you would expect, Elizabeth brings her own truth to the conversation, too, because her relationship with her mom is loving and comes with its own set of questions. Whoever she was or is to you, there's something here for you.
Now, on to the episode.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: This isn't imperfectly honest.
I'm Elizabeth, and after about four decades, I'm shifting from the person I always thought I should be to. To the person I really want to be, in part because I've learned to be honest both with myself and just about everybody I encounter. It's not always perfect. Sometimes it's a rocky road. But I'm learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might learn something, too.
Hey, listeners, Today I have my friend Max Shader Bashin, who has graciously offered to share some thoughts about his mother in honor of Mother's Day. Max, thank you so much for being here.
[00:02:00] Speaker C: Thank you, Elizabeth, for having me.
I'm excited to share and learn also a little bit about your mother.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: I'm here, Max. Did I pronounce your name correctly?
[00:02:12] Speaker C: You did. You did. Wow. Thank you very much.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Okay. All right.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Max is fine.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: I'm going to keep working on that.
Well, Max, could you just give us a little context and introduce yourself?
[00:02:26] Speaker C: Sure. Thank you again. My name is Max. I live here in Big Sky, Montana.
My wife and I moved here about 10 years ago. We'd previously lived in the Bay Area and actually raised our kids in Europe, in Germany, where my family is from.
My mother spent much of her life on the East Coast. She lost her hearing and became deaf about 25 years ago, had a cochlear implant, wanted the peacefulness of the mountains, so she moved to Colorado.
And probably four or five years ago, I got her to move to the mountains here outside of Bozeman.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Wow, that's so nice.
In honor of Mother's Day, what is your favorite memory of your mother?
[00:03:18] Speaker C: That's a good way to start the conversation. Elizabeth, thank you. Many things come to mind, but I'll focus on two.
One is my mom tended to be relatively carefree.
I think she had a very easy childhood and that was well taken care of by my father before he passed. So she had a fairly carefree life.
And it's exemplified in the memory I have. We were skiing in Klosters in Switzerland and she was going to try to follow her two sons, me included, down this mogul run, even though it was probably too difficult for her. She fell at the first turn and proceeded to tumble down the 100ft, 200ft down the hill, could not stop.
And we were, of course, pretty worried. And she stops and is just laughing her head off. And I think it just sort of exemplifies, okay, I tried something. It didn't go well.
But I think other people enjoyed seeing my mistake and I'm just going to go with the flow. So it was sort of very carefree and just the belly laughing is something that I will always remember.
I think that's one. And the other is she was not always very accepting of my wife.
At first that came to change. And one of the ways it came to change is when she was holding her first grandchild, our first son, in her arms. And I just remember her in the hospital and the big smile.
And I think she sort of.
She came to realize that perhaps Anne, my wife, is not such a bad person after all.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Why do you think, if you're willing to share, she came around after some time. Besides just seeing this beautiful grandchild that was a product of you and your wife.
[00:05:22] Speaker C: That's a good question. Again, Elizabeth.
At first, that's probably one of the disagreements I had with my mother, a hard discussion we had when I told her that I was going to propose to Anne. I was the oldest son of the oldest son for many generations.
And she had this very high bar image in her mind of who I should be marrying.
And Ann did not fit that image at all.
And so I think she had a hard time just seeing who Anne was because right from the get go, it was not the type of person she wanted me to be marrying. So that made it hard for Anne, needless to say.
But over time, I think she came to appreciate how Ann made me a better person, encouraged me to spend more time with my mom since we lived on opposite coasts or lived in Europe and she lived in the States she saw how Ann raised our kids and how well they were doing.
So I think it was a journey that had her come around and finally realizing, okay, maybe this was a good choice. And so the last 20 or 25 years were much, much easier for the two of them when they were together.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: You know, I think about this a lot, just both in the relationship that I have with my mother, but also in relationships in general.
When you love someone or want the best for someone, you want them to achieve great things and marry extraordinary people and things like that. And it's good to have this high level of stand.
And that standard can come across as judgment and be paralyzing as well. So it's hard to sort of figure out that line. And I've had a somewhat similar experience with my mother in which sometimes she's been skeptical of some of the things that I've decided to do and then has been willing to come around and change her mind. And I appreciate that and like to think that I've inherited that ability to change my mind and also admit when I was wrong that my mother was able to model for me as well.
[00:07:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a great point about the modeling. And there's always a good side to the coin and there's also a challenge that arises. But I'm just curious, do you have a piece of advice your mom gave you that you will never forget? And then similarly, do you have a piece of advice that your mom gave you that you outrightly have ignored?
[00:08:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
The thing that comes to mind about the advice I always remember is nothing ventured, nothing gained. She's always encouraged me to just put myself out there. My mom actually called me the other day because she is an extraordinary artist and she uses a medium that she pursues for a while, and then I think maybe she gets a little bit bored and then she switches. And so she's spending some time in Florida now and has been doing some art with shells. And she wasn't sure if it was any good.
And so she decided to just put herself out there and go to some galleries, some high end galleries, and say, basically, is this good? Do you want to feature?
And the answer overwhelmingly came back that it was amazing and these prestigious galleries wanted to feature it. And it just reminded me of that advice that she always gives me, that nothing ventured, nothing gain, and you got to believe in yourself and just put yourself out there.
[00:09:26] Speaker C: How neat. How neat. At some point, if you could share with me photos of what she's put together, I'd be curious to See what those shots came out to look like.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe we'll put that in the show notes for this episode as well. Give her a head start on her promotion.
The advice that I am still hesitant to follow is that security is more important than passion and joy.
And I'm nervous to articulate this because I don't want to shed a negative weight on my father. But my father is an extraordinary, smart, loyal, hardworking man and we can always count on him to be there and to do the right thing at the right time. And my mom values that so much and has also been able to build a happy life with him. And they have a multi decade marriage. But she always instilled in to me that that level of security and loyalty was more important than anything else.
I no longer believe that to be true. I think that sometimes to experience the high highs, you have to take risks and a sense of adventure and that focus on security and loyalty doesn't always coincide with that.
Yeah. So I'm still a question mark about that advice, but it's something that I'm willing to at least try to contradict.
[00:11:22] Speaker C: Yeah, that's interesting. You said a couple things.
One of my favorite quotes growing up, it was from Helen Keller, and life is an adventure or nothing at all.
And that has a thread of always trying new things. Get out of your comfort zone.
Here in Big sky, people purposely have these huge yards and they fence them. And it's like, why are you trying to block yourself off from your community?
Your community should be the one that gives you joy and to engage in it. And so to me, I always try to remind that in and of itself is an adventure.
How do you participate in a community?
Sometimes it's uncomfortable. But to your point, if you don't feel the highs and the lows, you won't necessarily appreciate the joy of living.
And your dad being the security person, I think I'm a lot like that.
But the carefreeness of my mom is also really important and has come out and I hope, like you do, you sort of find a balance between the two. Take the good from each and don't worry too much about how the challenges of each, you know, shared with you.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that. And I didn't realize this until this moment, but her advice of nothing ventured, nothing gained and value security and loyalty above all else.
It's kind of contradictory advice. And maybe that's a product of sort of how I've always been stuck in the in between because my mother is an artist who makes decisions very Quickly. And my father is an accountant who makes very calculated decisions, and I've always landed somewhere in between. So. Yeah. Grateful to have that balance.
[00:13:18] Speaker C: Elizabeth, you don't have to live in between.
I don't. I think you can live both. Look, you. You can have the security of, you know, whether it's your financial security or your health or whatever, that's. There's nothing wrong with that.
But then again, and I think you've done this well, you can also try new things. You can build a career and be successful and then pivot and look to do something else for yourself. I don't see anything wrong with either approach.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that. I like that. What did you learn from your mother's high highs or your mother's successes?
[00:14:00] Speaker C: I guess do what you love.
And in her case, her husband, my dad, died when she was, I'm going to say, 44, 45, and I was still in college.
And she didn't know what she wanted to do. She never had to take care of herself. But she had started to lose her hearing, so she sort of threw herself in the world of the hard of hearing.
She had no clue what she was doing from a business perspective. But it all worked out really well because I think in the end, you will always have enough energy to pick yourself up if you're doing what you love.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: It's really nice.
Really nice.
My mom has always found a way to enjoy life. And when she decides she wants something, she figures out how to get it.
And I really learned that from her, that other people will say, her name's Jackie, they'll say, jackie. That's totally unrealistic. And she'll just get it in her head that she wants to do it, whether it's practical or not, and she'll find a way to make it happen.
[00:15:17] Speaker C: Yeah, you have some of that trait.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I do.
[00:15:21] Speaker C: I do.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Thanks.
You know, we talked about success and the high highs.
Is there something that you learned from a time when your mother came up short or failed or just saw that other side of the high high?
[00:15:41] Speaker C: There might be two things that come to mind, but let me start with one, and it is. And maybe I noticed this later in life when I improved on my own emotional intelligence.
But as she got older, I felt she became more and more narcissistic. It was more and more about her, and I always tied that with the feeling that because it was more and more about her, she was less of a joyful person. And so I always tie the two together. Joy sort of left her life when she focused more on herself and less making it about others. And I felt when she was making it about others and the way I hope I lead my life is to help and lift up others.
I think you find more joy in taking that approach than making it about yourself.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Watching my mother gave me the opportunity to see how someone can be successful in everyone else's eyes, but still not feel that way.
My mom designed jewelry for Donna Karan. She is a legitimate artist and has tremendous talent. But she grew up in a small town and she was confident in her ability to be a big fish in a small pond, but she wasn't confident in her ability to be a big fish in a big pond.
And even when she got to the level that she was designing jewelry for Donna Karan, she still didn't see herself as someone who had achieved that level of success. She still saw herself as. As a small town girl.
Having the opportunity to see that through someone else's experience has made me really have a lot more self confidence and helped me believe in my ability to compete in any circle rather than just in the comfort of my small town.
[00:17:58] Speaker C: How do you define measuring up?
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:02] Speaker C: For your person or for your mom's perspective?
[00:18:07] Speaker B: Great question.
For me, the way that I would define it is believing that I am, quote, good enough to be in conversation with anyone that I want to be in conversation with. To believe that I can be in any circle that I want to enter.
To me, that's the standard of measuring up. How do you define it?
[00:18:34] Speaker C: I don't know. I didn't think of an answer before I asked you the question.
I think it's changed over time.
How do you measure up financially? How do you measure up with other folks?
But I think I've come around to something more. What you're saying to be able to be in conversation with as a broad swath of people as possible.
I look at it as more of being in community and developing a network of people who either help me in some way because I can learn from them, or I help them in some way because I ask them a question and maybe have them think about it in a different perspective. So for me, it's less about the material, material side the fashion. Where I live, I'm fortunate. Got to a point where we're comfortable with how we live and how we can live. And then I think that enabled me to be more about what kind of things do I want people to remember about me when we go our separate ways.
The other reason I asked that question for you is because you said your mom, and I'm curious about this, she was a big fish in a small pond, if you will. And the vision that came to my mind is that of the ripple.
You know, when you throw in a still pond, when you throw a little pebble in there in this pond, what can a little pebble do? But if you look at it, it sort of splashes. And then over time you get little ripples that go further and further and further and eventually they make it to the other side of the pond. So even though it's a small pebble, it can have a big impact.
And I always love that visual analogy for myself. You don't know what, take a baby step and then you see where it goes and you may have more of an impact than you expect.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: Well, I love that image and I'm curious how you think about that with the work that you're currently passionate about. Can you tell us a little bit about your desire to combat climate change and how you decided to dedicate a lot of your life to that?
[00:20:57] Speaker C: Sure. I think I learned from to tie to the theme of today's Mother's Day podcast. I learned a lot from my mother or saw her deep appreciation of the outdoors.
And I think that's always stuck with me and was sort of the kernel that led to a lot of the climate work I do. Climate tech for innovation I'm a big believer technology innovation can have a big impact on some of the challenges we face.
But I also think climate policy is really important.
The mover for me was really when we visited Fox Glacier in New Zealand on the southern island, they have two glaciers and we spent four or five hours with the Rangers and there was about 30 adults and my three kids who were 12, 10 and nine at the time. And my son turns to me but in a room of 30 people and very loudly ask why is your generation ruining the earth for our generation? And I'd say I took that to heart and I promised them that anything I would do going forward, since I had an opportunity to pivot in my banking career to startup career, I made sure anything I did would have an impact on their generation. And that led to doing something working with startup companies, electric ATV, ZigBee, sensor for H vac systems and let to a lot of opportunities on the technology front, which I've really enjoyed. But then also realizing that technology in and of itself can't work alone.
You need policy to help support technology to be successful.
That's why I do a lot of work with citizens climate lobby. It's a nonpartisan market based policy to help with the transition to cleaner fuel systems.
That's, I think, why I enjoy working with you so much, Elizabeth, here at Snow Sustainability Network Organization here in Big sky, because we live in a community that loves the outdoors, appreciates the outdoors, but sees firsthand that the rivers aren't flowing like the way they used to and the rafting is not as good or the water's too warm and the fishermen get frustrated or like we had the season, maybe the snow conditions aren't that good because it's too warm or the weather systems haven't been moving around because of the warming climate. I'd love to go back to your mom a little bit because it sounds as with my mother, your mom had profound impact on you and her sort of extraordinary creativity. Is that the trait you are grateful to have inherited from her or is there another trait besides her creativity and push to excellence?
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, on the topic of climate change, I would say that my mom also really promoted a love of the outdoors for me. We were always outside as kids and she always taught me that life was too short to stay indoors.
And I appreciate that in many ways. And I'm glad that I inherited that desire to just get out, both figuratively and literally. She sort of just lives life to the fullest and enjoys the little gifts that are sent her way.
My mother is also an extraordinarily nurturing person.
So I have always felt like I had an eternal cheerleader in my back pocket pocket cheering me on. And I think I inherited a little bit of that with maybe a healthy dose of skepticism from my father.
I learned from her how lifting people up can not only make a difference in their life, but can can make a difference in mine and am eternally grateful for him having that example given to me.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: That's her ripple.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: That's her ripple, yes.
[00:25:32] Speaker C: Well, that was a very serious answer and very thoughtful.
Let's shift it a little bit, Elizabeth. And what is a funny story or a funny memory you have of your mother that you won't shake?
[00:25:49] Speaker B: She may not be crazy about me sharing this, but I'll do it anyway. So I had a large tumor that affected my bladder and made it so that I had to pee frequently. And she also has to pee frequently. And so we've learned to have to pee in sometimes public places when there's nowhere else to go. And I remember that we were touring Versailles and France and both of us really needed to pee. And we had this mother daughter moment of peeing in the Gardens of Versailles. And it was.
It was perfectly poetic because my mother is an extraordinary gardener and she's sort of like a more theatrical version of Martha Stewart. She has this perfect garden and perfectly dedicated home, except it's got a little bit of funk in her because she's quite an artist.
And so I just thought it was perfectly poetic that here we're peeing in, like, the most manicured, perfect garden possibly in the world. And.
Yeah, we're there together to have that imperfect moment.
[00:27:07] Speaker C: Yeah. That's why perfection and living life sometimes don't go hand in hand.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly.
What's your funniest memory of your mother?
[00:27:20] Speaker C: I have two.
One, as I mentioned, she became deaf later in life and had a cochlear implant so that she could hear a little bit.
And sometimes her battery went out on her hearing aid or cochlear, and she put on a new battery and then always did something, testing, testing, testing to make sure that the battery was functioning. And then she would ask whoever was with with her if they could say a few words to make sure it was all audible.
And it got to the point where I would just mouth the words, can you hear me? Can you hear me without any sound? And she just was able to enjoy it and laugh and laugh and laugh that I was teasing her despite of being deaf. I think that's one memory I'll always cherish. The other is her favorite joke.
Again, she was deaf. You have to remember that. And she would always tell people, how do you sell a chicken to a deaf person?
And I love the funny looks people gave her.
She would pause for a moment, and then as loud as she could yell, she would say, do you want to buy a chicken? But she's screaming it. And everyone would end up laughing. And the way she told the joke, I just.
I always love that childishness in her.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Love that.
Is there anything that you wish you would have been able to tell your mother before she passed?
[00:28:59] Speaker C: You know, I was lucky, Elizabeth. My mom had a slow, slow death. I guess maybe that doesn't sound so lucky, but it was a slow process of her becoming physically weaker and losing her sharpness. So the flip side of it is I had a lot of time in the last 12 months to just spend time with her. And I always called it closing the gap.
What is it that my mom wanted to make sure I knew about her and would be able to share with people in a eulogy or when they asked about her life, and then vice versa. Just the things that she felt she learned from Me and our family.
I think I was very fortunate to be able to have almost a weekly conversation for one or two hours and check in on that. So I don't have any regrets in that. I guess I always will. Regret. I wish I told my mom, I love you one last time. But I'd been with her only a day or two before she passed, so I shouldn't beat myself up too much for that.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: Well, my mom is still alive, at least to my knowledge. Unless she was hit by the bus the last couple hours, you never know. But I think the one thing that I feel nervous to say but also want to say is that I'm sorry for judging my mom before walking in her shoes.
It's always been very important to my mom to look great.
She went to a lot of great lengths to look great, and I judged her for that because I felt like you could spend your time more productive. And as I age a little bit, I notice that people treat me a little bit differently than they did when I was.
And I am prioritizing spending a little bit more time looking the way that I want to look.
Just one example, I actually got Botox on Monday, and I thought, oh, man, I would have judged my mother for doing this when she did. Well, I did judge my mother for doing this when she started doing it, and here I am.
You just never know you're gonna act when you walk in someone's shoes. So I am sorry that I judged her, and I'm glad that she actually taught me that appearance matters. I don't want to rely on my looks, and I don't want to surround myself with people who only like me because of my looks.
Sometimes looks can get you in the door, and it's nice to be able to use that to my advantage. And I'm grateful both that I inherited some decent genetics from my mother and that I learned that lesson from her.
[00:32:19] Speaker C: That's now comes full circle. Elizabeth, earlier you had talked about the balance.
Security is more important than fashion and joy. And you use the word fashion. So I actually had wanted to come back and say, that's interesting that you're putting fashion and joy together. That's something I would not have. But now I understand.
When you describe the judging of your mom for wanting to be beautiful and look good and put together well, I
[00:32:50] Speaker B: actually intended to use the word passion. But for the purpose of this conversation, I actually think fashion and joy is probably the perfect way to describe that, because my mother is quite a fashionista. And I think that there's Something about fashion that goes beyond just the clothes that you're wearing. So thank you for mishearing me.
[00:33:17] Speaker C: Or mishearing it, as the case might be. On the point of judging your mom, is there a trait that you are grateful to have inherited from her? Is that the passion and joy side of her, or is there something else?
[00:33:35] Speaker B: Gosh. My imperfectly honest answer is that I'm pretty glad that I inherited her genetics. She has very long legs, and I inherited that. And I'm also grateful that I inherited her ability to drive toward something that she wants in a way that most people cannot.
He can break down walls. And I think that I got a little bit of that from my mother as well.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: That's good. I like the now breaking down walls.
Thinking ahead for this, this podcast with you, I had to came back and back to three things my mom always did to break down walls, and that was always smile, always say please, and always say thank you.
And she would always say, those things don't cost you anything.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:34:35] Speaker C: And they can bring lots of joy and comfort and break the barriers that you might feel the tension between two people.
[00:34:46] Speaker B: Wow. I'm just going to soak that in.
Ah, well, Max, thank you so much for sharing these thoughts about your mother, especially because I know that you lost her recently.
So. So I admire your bravery in having this conversation. Thank you.
[00:35:04] Speaker C: Well, thank you, Elizabeth, for thinking of me. And I've enjoyed the conversation with you and learning something about your mother as well.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: All right, Max. Well, until next time.
[00:35:17] Speaker C: And to all the mothers out there, Happy Mother's Day.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: Thank you. Happy Mother's Day.
