Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to imperfectly honest Kayla here. And I am so proud of Elizabeth for having the courage to meet her fear head on with this conversation. And honestly, I think many of us will hear parts of ourselves in it. Because in 2020, somewhere between being careful and trying to stay safe, a lot of us started living with more fear than freedom. When the pandemic hit, a lot of us became hyper aware of germs in a way that we'd simply never been before. Hand sanitizer, disinfect groceries, avoiding crowds. I mean, just watching every cough in public like it was a massive threat. And for some people, Elizabeth included, that awareness slowly started to cross a line. What started as being careful became fear. Fear that quietly shaped routines, relationships, stress levels, even her ability to fully enjoy life. And she's not alone in that. Studies found that contamination, anxiety and OCD like behaviors surged during the pandemic, even among people who had never struggled with them before.
So in this episode, Elizabeth sat down with Iovanka Vujic, department head of microbiology and cell biology and a professor of bacterial pathogenesis at Montana State University, for an honest conversation about germs health and truly the balance between protecting ourselves and still living fully. Because yes, knowledge matters. Hygiene matters. But at some point, fear itself can become its own kind of risk. So without further ado, on to the episode, enjoy.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: This is imperfectly honest.
I'm Elizabeth, and after about four decades, I'm shifting from the person I always thought I should be to the person I really want to be, in part because I've learned to be honest both with myself and just about everybody I encounter. It's not always perfect. Sometimes it's a rocky road. But I'm learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might learn something too.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: The imperfectly honest podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. This podcast does not provide medical advice and is not intended as a substitute for the diagnosis and treatment provided by a licensed, trained physician, psychotherapist, or other health professional. This podcast expresses the individual opinions of Elizabeth and her guests and does not constitute professional medical or mental health services in sharing her experiences. Specific names, places, and other identifying information may be changed to protect the privacy of the people involved.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Hey, listeners. Welcome back.
I have a friend and colleague here today to talk about the exciting topic of germs.
So, as I have alluded to in a couple podcasts before, I developed a fairly unhealthy fear of germs during the pandemic for various reasons, and I have decided to just base my fears Head on and get honest about what I want to do about those fears.
I invited a friend and colleague, Ivanka, who is the professor and department head of Micro and Cell Biology at Montana State University. Ivanka, thanks for being here today.
[00:03:40] Speaker C: Oh, thanks for having me, Elizabeth. I'm happy to share my thoughts on this and listen to your thoughts as well. I'm forward to this.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Great. So, Ivanka, do you mind just briefly introducing yourself?
[00:03:54] Speaker C: Oh, you bet. As you said, my name is Ivanka Voyage and I'm the department head of microbiology and Cell biology and I'm a professor of bacterial pathogenesis. So basically I study how bacteria evade our immune system. That's been my heavy research focus and looking pretty closely at bugs like Staph aureus. So, you know, when you said I, you know, with the germaphobe, a lot of my colleagues think I'm a germaphobe too, just because of the way sometimes I behave and knowing what I know about some of the bugs. But staph is one of those that's ubiquitous. It's all around, it's on your skin, it's on surfaces. And I basically study why our immune system either succeeds or fails in getting rid of it.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: If you had to choose one thing for people to do each day to protect themselves from staphylo, what would you recommend?
[00:04:53] Speaker C: It's an easy one really here. I mean, I think the, you know, it's kind of preached a lot in many different venues, different articles, different public service. It's washing your hands. And you'd be amazed though, how many people actually don't do that. It's, and it's, they, people don't wash their hands because they think, oh, they really aren't dirty. They don't have like, you know, debris on them. But washing your hands is really key. It's really number one. It's number one. And soap and water is the best.
I mean there are some bugs. Like staff is very susceptible to the ethanol hand wipes and the ethanol, you know, just the, the gels and things that people use though that staff is very susceptible. And in fact, when those ethanol based hand sanitizers came on the scene, you know, 20 years ago, it really knocked down staff in the hospitals because staff would take a ride from say, you know, like your doctor is visiting you and then you have staff and it rides on the doctor to the next because washing their hand was somewhat of an inconvenience. Washing takes time. If you watch with nurses and doctors now, they will hit the hand sanitizers and they won't hit the sink. Some of them will. But there are bugs that the hand sanitizers don't work on. And so especially in the hospital, you know, it's best to have those hands washed. But hand washing, number one.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: And how do you balance washing your hands enough versus not enough?
[00:06:21] Speaker C: You know, you're an outdoors person, right? So it's not like you're going to be near a sink and hand washing and, you know, so the gel, the, the gels definitely work very well. Like I said, they do a really good job at knocking down a lot of the, the bugs that are on there and keeping us safe. But the big thing then, I guess what people would do if you can't hand wash would be don't touch your face.
You watch people, Elizabeth, next time you're with your colleagues and friends, check it out. How many times people touch their face.
Have done studies on this, and I haven't looked up this study recently, but they've proven that you touch like the end of your nose like 200 times a day when they have observed people. And the end of your nose, right, what we call the anterior nares is a really great place for a bacteria to hang out. So if you think about that, if, you know, you're out with your buddies and you're out on a hike and everybody's going to be touching their nose and not able to wash our hands.
So, yeah, a simple thing would be like, keep your hands away from your face because that's like a very easy portal there. With hands to face, what sort of
[00:07:32] Speaker B: activities do you think people need to wash their hands prior to doing anything?
[00:07:39] Speaker C: Like with food prep, of course, I mean, and that one of, you know, that one is regulated, actually.
But, you know, if, if you were applying, you know, lotion or makeup, things like that, of course. Wash your hands eating. Wash your hands before you're e.
In your field of work, too. You meet so many people and you, you know, I know all through the years you've traveled a ton and that's hard, right, because. And again, I think it's like just as, as frequently as you can washing the hands after, you know, you shake hands or, you know, sit in these, you know, communal areas where we really don't have much control, like on airplanes and things like when you get off, try to wash your hands right away. It really does knock down a lot of, in the bacterial world, what we would call these transient bugs, these transient germs that hop onto you and aren't going to cause infection. Or do anything. If you wash them off, they can sit on you for hours.
They. They're not going to have a breach of your skin, but they could get into a mucous membrane. And so that's why you're like, oh, they're hanging out in the hands. It's not like they're going to think that's a concept people mess up a little bit. It's not like they're getting through your hands. By, I mean our hands, we have these, you know, this really thick, thick skin. You know, often they're calloused. You know, it's hard for bugs to get through that, but they can catch a ride on that and then get to a mucous membrane and cause you some problems.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: And I don't want to dwell too much on the hand washing, but speaking from experience, I do know that some people suffer from obsessive hand washing, and if they heard the start of this podcast, it might validate that behavior. So what would you say to somebody who obsessively washes their hands and needs to get a grasp on what's reasonable and what's not?
[00:09:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think again, it's like they are really the transporters. Not really. Their hands itself are not going to get infected. And a lot of things you're not going to get infected from, you know. Can bugs live on surfaces? Yeah, they can. If you're at a desk taking notes, are you really going to pick up a bug from doing that? Highly unlikely. Really. They don't like to sit on dry surface.
So, you know. Yeah, if you're in class and you. And you sit in. In a table and you take some notes, I'm not like somebody that says, I'll go wash your hands, you know, that's. That's not necessary. The necessary things are after using the restroom, of course. And as crazy as that is, people don't wash their hands very well. And I think something that people actually don't realize is that a lot of our, especially like our gu bugs, they really come from. You basically eat somebody else's fecal matter, which is really, really minor, minor particle on people's hands that they touch the door with.
So, like bathroom doors and before you eat and before you prep food, that's where you really need to do your hand washing. Other things in your daily life. Are you really going to be having to be paranoid about hand washing?
[00:10:44] Speaker B: No.
[00:10:45] Speaker C: And so certainly I agree with you. I don't want someone to listen to this and be like, oh my gosh, somebody handed me A pen and, and I need to wash my hands immediately. I don't think so. To me these bugs really like going human to human.
They don't really like sitting on surfaces and transmitting where they like transmitting from surfaces to humans are things like where you have people sweating and the surfaces are getting kind of rubbed by the person. You know, the best case for this is really like gyms.
People are doing a bench press. They have their bare back against the bench press and they have micro abrasions.
That's where those bugs will be like I'm going to hitch a ride.
You know, they're not that great off of surfaces that aren't being kind of heavily touched by like bare skin.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: So do you advise wearing long sleeve shirts at the gym or.
[00:11:45] Speaker C: So I have, I have a joke that, and it was actually said to me from one of my, one of my colleagues that is an infectious disease doctor and he used to say that the gyms are adult daycares. Right. And so they're like full of, full of germs and you know, people are like running and breathing hard and coughing and sweating and you know, the hygiene is kind of low there. I don't think. So What I would suggest is though, after a good workout at a gym, you take a shower for sure. Yeah, that, that makes sense. You can certainly be in, you know, you're, you're taking top and shorts and be comfortable that I, I don't think you def, you don't need to by any means cover yourself up. It's getting rid of the transient bugs when they hopped on. And people are better at, you know, spraying down equipment. But when everything's dependent on people, people, there's always a breakdown. Right. Somebody doesn't do it and you know, then you sit on the bench press or something and that's where that's like easily area to be transmitted because if the bug is there, your skin is there and you're rubbing it back and forth, you're getting an abrasion and you don't even notice it. It's micro abrasion. And so that's where it would be more important. So taking a shower after versus like covering yourself up makes a lot more sense to me.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: I was a fitness instructor at the YMCA back in high school and college and they us go through this training about all the things that you can get from champs and it was horrifying. Horrifying. So yeah, every time I'm at a gym I think like, oh man.
[00:13:24] Speaker C: Yeah, see they get a good job with you back they got you ready. So you probably would never, ever, ever bring something home from a gym because you're ready for it. You're like, yeah, I'm not getting it from here.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I am.
Things that you just wouldn't think about, like the water bottle that you put in someone's sweat pool, for instance, or.
[00:13:46] Speaker C: Yes, yes. Yep, yep, yep. And. And I. You know, I think about that. I do.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: That's like. Yeah, that. That stuff is where. That's where things are easily transmitted. And I used to always laugh when the. My ID doctor friend would say, it's like adult daycares. He's like this. It's really easy to spread infectious disease in those settings.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: So is there anything besides washing your hands or paying attention at the gym that you do to protect your health that the average person wouldn't think to do?
[00:14:19] Speaker C: I mean, one that people. You think I'm kind of weird about because I don't like the door handles. I definitely. If I can, I always use, like, my elbows to open door handles because, again, I study staff, and staff hooks rides on skin. And so usually my colleagues usually bust out. And we know what it's got. It's got chivalry back, Elizabeth. People will open the doors for me when they see me coming because, like, oh, here she goes. She's gonna take 30 seconds to hit her elbow and then drop her computer. And then.
And so people like, oh, here she comes. Let's hit the door for her. Because she doesn't like touching door handles. But I think, you know, there's a lot of things where people will open doors with paper towels, but then put the paper towel in their pocket. And that doesn't help you at all. Right. It's like, if I know I'm not gonna be able to wash my hands for, like, a long time, I do try to say, like, okay, I'm not gonna get my bare hands on something that everybody's using the. The door to the restroom.
And, you know, you go in and out. It's like, I don't really want to have to wash my hands after coming out of the restroom because the door to the restroom is dirty. And so, yeah, I think that was one that. I mean, like, if. Honestly, if you walk down the hall here, Elizabeth, they would be like, oh, Joanna never uses her hands to touch doors, which would be kind of like a germaphobe.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: So I try not to open doors with my hands either. But I'm always wondering if that's actually doing me any good, because then I Think, well, if the germ's getting on my elbow, say, and then I come home and I sit in my chair, then I'm still just kind of circulating the germ around my house. Is that thinking incorrect?
[00:15:53] Speaker C: You know, I think technically you're not thinking incorrect, but practically it's going to be less likely to be able to find a home again. It's like the hands to face is kind of where you get yourself. And so that's why, you know, you're not. Your elbow isn't going to be next to one of your, you know, your nose or your mouth or your eyes where, I mean, I'm just noticing myself. It'd be funny kind of to have me on camera here because I touch my face a lot and I think that's why I wash my hands a lot. But I'm a person that definitely will, you know, do the thinker pose and the hand on the chin. And then I'm like, oh, dang it, what the heck am I doing? And I still do it. I know that about myself. And so that's why I'm like, I gotta keep these hands cleaner because I'm gonna go ahead and touch my face. So I think your elbow is like a good, a good option. You know, usually they're using our hands as a portal to someplace else. And so you with your elbow, again, if it's gonna get on your. The armchair or whatever, that is likely not going to be an issue because, you know, it's not like you're going to be doing push ups on your chair or something where you're sweating and, and r up against it.
So you're probably in good, in good shape.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Good shape. Okay.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: I like your technique. I would give you. That's a, that's an A plus for you. I think that's good. All right.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Is there something that people often do to protect their health that is actually potentially more harmful than helpful?
[00:17:25] Speaker C: You know, I think, I don't. It's. This is not more harmful than helpful. But I think sometimes people get. People got a little bit too dependent on thinking that the mask saved you from everything. Right. And you know, you know, this, the mask has to be worn correctly. The masks have to be, you know, really, the N95s are the ones that can actually do it and they're very uncomfortable. And I think that gave people like a false sense of security. And I think the, like a pet peeve of mine was people would, you know, show up to meetings with the masks on, but then like eat lunch
[00:17:56] Speaker B: and I'm like, what the heck are you doing?
[00:17:58] Speaker C: Right?
And usually now you'll see people will show up with the mask on and they're like, yeah, I don't feel well.
And for me I'm like, if you don't feel well, just stay home. I mean, if one thing Covid taught us is we can do a lot of work from home and, you know, we don't always have to be around each other. And so I think that gives people a little bit of a false sense. But I don't want to say like, oh, don't ever do it. And certainly, you know, when you're immunocompromised, all that helps, all of it helps. But I think up at peeve was like, they were used incorrectly. And I still see it. People will come in and they'll say, yeah, I didn't, I didn't want to get you sick. And then they like pull their mask down and then drink a cup of coffee and I'm like, what the heck are you doing?
So that, that I think is something we're well intentioned but a little bit misguided on that. Especially when it was really pervasive. You'd see people, you know, and it was underneath their nose or wrapped around their chin. And then, and then the whole idea where we would have these meetings and masks were required, but they would serve food. And I, that one used to just blow my mind.
I was like, what are we doing? You know, like, what, what, what are we doing? And then people would get upset when somebody like didn't have their mask on. And I'm like, but they're, but everybody's eating and, and yeah, so yeah, that one, that one I never understood. So, you know, I think hand sanitizers, I think, you know, they're good, but you know, if you use like a lot of it, it just kind of basically trashes your hands. And I think, yeah, I'm like, well, you know, that's probably doing more, more harm than good because now you've got cracks all over your hands and next time you come across something that can get into your hand, you know, it's probably not as good. So I do think those are a little overused. And I do know some people really are just like, I'm using a hand sanitizer and not using soap and water.
So I think we got really dependent the convenience of hand sanitizers. And again, it's very prevalent in the healthcare field and next time you go in, watch them, they'll hit those hand sanitizers on their way out instead of hitting the water.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: It's interesting, I think that sometimes people just like the convenience of it, but it's interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: It is very convenient and it's better than nothing, right?
[00:20:18] Speaker B: How do you feel about wearing shoes in the home?
[00:20:21] Speaker C: You know, I think you're less likely to pull in something that's going to cause you problems again because, you know, you're not, you're, again, the mucous membranes aren't going to hit the floor.
So it's more of a tidiness versus a hygiene thing. Although, you know, if you're walking the dog in the park and you know, you, you're, there's a lot of dogs around, you're likely going to get, you know, some dog feces and on your shoe. And that's probably not the greatest to have in the house.
But I feel like that's pretty minor because again, it's not like if you had, you know, little kids sitting on the floor and eating off of the floor, then I think that's something where you want to pay a little more attention to. But of course, I'm sure you've read about the hygiene hypothesis. So a lot of people think that that's like we, we've kind of had our children that have issues with allergies because of how sanitary the conditions were.
So I'm a little torn on that. As weird as I am about like opening doors with my elbows, I'm a little torn on some of that where I think, you know, I think some of that exposure is actually really good.
So it's probably not really bringing in anything you have to worry about. Having said that, because my lab is a staff lab and I often have pre med students that go up to the hospital to shadow or visit. I always tell them like, you know, spray your bottoms of your shoes with ethanol before you guys go into the nursing homes. Because, you know, I'm like, you don't, I don't want, you know, guys, you guys spreading anything that, and that's, that's a little over the top because our, you know, if anything is spilled, it's all decontaminated before anyone leaves. But I'm a little bit like, you know, that would be horrible. You go to visit your grandmother in the nursing home and you, you bring in staff and in those places, they're only as clean as, you know, the staff that's there. And some of them are very good and some of them aren't and you pick up these bugs there and so that I do say like with, with students where I'm like, you know, if you're, if you're taking care of an elderly person or an immunocompromised person, you know, just be smart, take that stuff off, take your clothes off and change before you, you know, assist somebody.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good thought. And again, I think thinking about whether you're immunocompromised or who you're interacting with, with who might be immunocompromised is important as well.
[00:22:44] Speaker C: It really is important. And I think what people really forget is there are a lot of immunocompromised people out there. I think, you know, you immediately go to cancer for immunocompromised. And we have so many other individuals that are on these biologics that'll knock down your immune system, like say for psoriasis or irritable bowel disease. And those people are also immunocompromised to different degrees. And so I think in society in general there are a lot more people that are living good, long lives, but that are actually are immunocompromised. And so I do think you do have to be cognizant of that. And especially in settings where you have a lot of people that many immune systems might be just fine with whatever's going on, but some aren't.
And just to be thoughtful of that,
[00:23:36] Speaker B: one of the things that I've been thinking about recently is my house doesn't look dirty very often because I take my shoes off when I come in the house.
I am often most of my socializing happens outside my home. Right?
[00:23:55] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: And so I'm just kind of curious how you think about frequency of things like cleaning your bathroom, changing your sheets, things like that when you're alone versus in a family.
[00:24:08] Speaker C: Yeah, when you're alone it is, is very different, like you said. And I think that's kind of more of your own kind of ick factor. You know, it's like what you feel kind of icky where it's like, oh my, I should probably scrub the tub. Even though obviously it might not have a ring around it. But it's like I haven't done that for a couple of weeks. I should probably, you know, do something. I think, you know, when you're by yourself it's a little bit different because you know you're your bugs are your bugs. And so it's not like you are going to put yourself in a situation where you're going to self inoculate from your environment there. And so it mostly boils down to keeping things tidy and looking nice versus something that you have to worry about like sheets, you know, and also that depends on like when you shower. Like if you. People that shower at night usually don't have to change their sheets near as much as people that shower in the morning one time, you know, where, if you definitely would like to do the sheets when, if you, you know, are sick, you have the flu, you know, as soon as you start feeling well, you want to clean that. I mean, are you actually going to self inoculate again? No, I mean these are mostly just kind of the, the fact that they're actually dirty, then you know, you've been sweating and, and they, there's some of these, you know, people that really sweat a lot. And I think that's where you shed a lot of skin. You shed a lot of the dust mites. I think there's more skin and dust mite issue than there is an infectious disease issue in that it's more just kind of cleanliness versus a bug that's going to give you a problem.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Well, I could ask you 300 more questions, but to be respectful of your time and the time of our listeners, I want to do a rapid fire round where I'm just going to mention some things that I often wonder how much do I need to pay attention to this?
And I'm hoping you can just give me a number as far as on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being oh my gosh, yes, definitely take this precaution. It's really important. And one being meh, don't really need to.
Great.
So keeping your distance from people who are coughing and sneezing.
[00:26:30] Speaker C: Let's see, I would say that is about an 8. And I'll give you one little thing, why I think that's not a 10 is because there's a lot of allergies and I think we get a little bit caught up and people aren't really sick. But yeah, hacking, if somebody's actually sick, hacking is good to stay away from.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Okay.
Cleaning your kitchen sink.
[00:26:52] Speaker C: So the kitchen sink depends on what you're. You're prepping in there. It's a 10 if you're doing raw meats and it would be more like a 5 if you were doing vegetables or washing dishes because the dishes, in theory the soap should clean your sink for you.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: And if you're not doing dishes or anything in the sink and that it's breeding moisture without being cleaned off, how would you rate that?
[00:27:18] Speaker C: Yeah, that's probably every day you'd want to wipe it down.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:27:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. The water is important. You'll get biofilm from the water.
And so, yeah, so wiping those kitchen sinks, so they're either dry or else spraying them with an antimicrobial and then letting it dry. But often you can just wipe them, wipe them down. If you're not using like raw meat in there, you can just wipe them down. And that keeps that water from being a nice breeding ground for some bacteria to come in.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: How about laundering your dishwashing sponges and towels and things like that?
[00:27:55] Speaker C: So I think those have to be daily.
Yeah, so that's a 10. That, that's a 10. That's important.
Your hands are on those. You're wiping counters with those. You know, if you wipe a counter with it, I, they, I think again, if you're wiping counters after you've prepped raw meat, those need to go laundered immediately.
If you're wiping counters with those antimicrobials, you want to wipe the counter with that and then either toss the towel or, you know, if it's disposable or wash it because you don't really want to have those antimicrobials that are used for counters on your hands. So I would say those. That's a 10. Like keeping those clean towels in, in bathrooms, in, in general are tens. You know, like after company, you want to wash it. You know, you don't have to change yours every day because it's you doing it. But if you have a over, you'd want to, you know, give them basically their towel and you. Your towel. There are great studies on that where you see staph aureus infections because families that are poor, that can't afford that, they have high rates of transmission of Staph aureus. They little kids will share towels and it'll go between them. Several studies like that have been done on that where that the towels were what we call a fomite. And you know, they were. One time the CDC came into a community and said, hey, you guys should laundry your stuff. And it was turned out to be very offensive because the community had very, you know, we're talking, you know, really, really poor rural community. And it was like, well, not hardly any people actually have that capacity. So I was like, you better come up with something else because that's not going to happen. They're going to share a towel.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: That's interesting things you don't think about.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: You don't think about it. But you know, really a lot of infectious disease in the poverty stricken areas. It's always higher.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: That's really sad.
[00:29:47] Speaker C: Yeah, it is.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: How about wiping down electronics so using, you know, a Lysol wipe or something like that for your phone in particular?
[00:29:58] Speaker C: Yeah, the phone is one that, yeah, you lay on the counter when you're, you know, at a restaurant or whatever. So the phone is one that I would say, you know, it, it's good practice for every couple days to kind of clean your phone off, I think your computer. Again, not a lot of people use your computer and you know, it's not up against your face. It's so I mean that one for personally, I really only do that kind of when I'm like, oh, this is looking like my. It's looking a little grungy. I need to work on it. So, you know, every couple of weeks take kind of, you know, brushing it off or whatever. But that one is not as source as much as your phone. You know, I often have my phone set down in some random place that's, you know, a lot of people are around. Like if you're in a meeting, you set it down and then, you know, by accident drop it in the parking lot, you know, that one I'd say would be more like a 10. Keeping the phone clean. And then the computer would be more like a five.
[00:30:55] Speaker B: Okay.
Would you feel the same way about the computer if you frequently eat while you're on your computer?
[00:31:04] Speaker C: I think so. That would be more. Not necessarily like the, the bugs that you'd be worried about, just like the debris.
Okay. So that would be more like just being cleanliness versus like the debris itself. I think you would be still. Okay. Unless of course, like you have a friend over there using your computer and they're eating and on your computer I'd be like, okay, that's an immediate 10.
Okay, we're gonna clean this.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: How about using hand sanitizer?
I know that's not your favorite, but doing something after you touch things like gas pumps, I hear that come up a lot in hygiene conversations.
[00:31:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good idea because that there are a lot of people using it and, and again, you're gonna pump the gas, you're gonna hop in your car and drive, you know, anywhere from five minutes to five hours. And in that time period you're likely gonna grab something to drink, especially the long ones, or you're gonna touch your face or.
And then your steering wheel.
I'm a fan of some type of hand sanitizer after that just because it's heavily used.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: And then one question I forgot to ask you about that the computer conversation reminded me of. So how do you think about buildup versus exposure? And what I mean by that is okay, you touch a gas pump and then you touch your face. That's clearly direct exposure.
And I've also been told to do things like mop my floor every so often to deal with the buildup of bacteria and things. So. And I don't have a clear view of how you think about when to do something immediately versus something that needs to be done like on a weekly or bi weekly basis.
[00:33:06] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think most of that like with floor and you know, that's more like again kind of cleanliness versus like an, as a portal of infection.
But like a toilet, what you will often see is you know, these, and you'll see these in sinks, you'll see these rings which are you know, bacteria that are made of biofilm. And they're usually colored. Some of them are green, some of them are like a red, some of them are yellow. And those bacteria have now attached and that's where you know it's, they're harder to get off.
And that is in order to prevent that. That's like the kind of the actions you and I were talking about earlier, which is like, okay, like if you just wipe down the sinks or if you wipe down the showers, you don't have near as much of that biofilm. So showers are ones notorious to get biofilm in it because people kind of just forget. You're like, okay, you're was body, you're getting all your bacteria off but you're, you know, oh, it's going down the drain, it's not a problem. But it doesn't all go there. And it likes to attach onto a surface. And then if you don't wipe it down, it's really easy. Now you can just wipe it down physically daily and get rid of it. And if, but if you don't, you will see those. And I don't remember, I don't know if you remember. I remember this really well when I was a little kid and we had a lot of of those ceramic sinks like in gyms and they almost always had like a red ring in it or a pink ring. And it was like, you know, when you're kid you're like don't really pay attention to it and you're like what is that? But you know, there's, there's these bugs that produce these pigments and that's why there's these rings in these sinks. And so, I mean, if you go, you. If you start paying attention to it, you will see it and you'll see it in toilets. It's not really like the urine or fecal matter in toilets. That is, I mean, obviously you can easily identify that. But sometimes you look and you'll see these rings and it's like, oh, that's like. Hasn't been scrubbed. The bacteria are growing and it's like a biofilm in there. You wouldn't get that really on a floor, but you could certainly get. I mean, it's super common in showers and in sinks, you know, both bathroom sinks and kitchen sinks. You'll go in there and you'll see, you know, some. Some of the discoloration you'll get from really hard water that has, you know, some of the mineral deposits on it, but a lot of it is biofilm.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Well, this has been really helpful. Before we close out, I just want to share something and welcome any thoughts you want to share and response. So, you know, I have learned in all of this that there is a balance. I like being more educated on how to keep myself healthy.
And I was sick when the pandemic hit and I was deathly afraid of getting more sick.
And I learned firsthand that stress can be as much of a risk as some of these bugs.
And, you know, I got to the point where I let the stress really take over me and I was giving germs so much room in my thoughts every day that it really impacted me negatively. And I just. I want to share that in case there's somebody who is in the same situation.
I want to reiterate that knowledge is power and balance is important.
[00:36:47] Speaker C: I think that's excellent thing to say. But I teach the medical students here at msu. We have the first year medical program here and then they get their degree from the University of Washington. It's a Wyoming medical program. And during the pandemic, we do a micro class and we have the bugs on plates and we're talking. And this student came up to me and he said, I am so deathly afraid of germs and bugs. He's like, am I going to get sick from this lab? And I was like, no, no, no, you're not getting sick. I said, everything is ins. Plate. It's not on the outside, the plate. And he said, you know, basically that the class itself and I try not to be dramatic on like, oh, if you get this, this could be fatal or whatever. We try to highlight what you're really going to get, which is maybe like a boil, right? You know, it's not going to be fatal. But this poor student, he came forward and he's like, I just am really scared.
And he's like, I have kind of trouble functioning. And I talked to him for a while, and by the end of the class, he had felt a lot better about it. It was like one. We have a lot of treatments for infectious disease. That's why I always like the medical students when they are trying to figure out what they want to do. And infectious disease doesn't pay very well. And so a lot of people are kind of like, I like it, but I do have to make a living. But what I always say to them is, like, it's really one that we do have a lot of good drugs for infectious disease, and we can, you know, people can totally be cured from it. And there's not a lot of medical. And one thing to remember, there's not a lot of medical emergencies with infectious diseases.
And so they're not catastrophic for 99% of the time. And so I think that's something to keep in perspective. And I think the other is when you avoid people and you avoid contact, I think, you know, your. Your immune system needs to be stimulated to be good. And so a little bit of exposure to bugs is good.
And I think that's where, you know, we. We saw people getting very sick after the pandemic with things like they're like, you know, a lot of different infectious diseases. It's like, oh, my gosh, I had the worst cold ever. Well, we went two years without getting colds, right?
That's not good. So you are absolutely right. It's a true balance in. In it. And again, I would reiterate that most of the infectious disease, we're going to have something we can do for.
But having you sharing that you were sick during the pandemic, that I think it would be hard to make sure to get that balance because there was a lot of fear with it, a lot of fear with what we didn't understand.
And I think as we understand more, you're more comfortable with it. And I would say, you know, I think I'm kind of a little bit of a hypocrite because I have huge dogs that are in and out of the house all the time. And, you know, I have a Newfoundland. All he does is drool everywhere. And for some reason, that doesn't gross me out as much as somebody's hand on my doorknob. Right. And so I definitely would probably be a good one for a psychiatrist to talk to about that. Like, how can you handle that? But you can't handle this. And so I think it's all. Some of it is just really what I like to say is kind of, you know, just a gross factor, like how, like, if you think about things and it kind of grosses you out, and then for you, that was real. You were sick and you didn't want to get more sick. And so I think if I knew you back then, I would be very, very careful around you and be like, I think I have a sniffle. Even if it was an allergy, because you do have to be careful then. So I could see where that would be hard for you to balance. But coming out of it, it makes it hard too.
Yeah.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: And I think maybe the difference with your Newfoundland and Adornob is that you love your Newfoundland.
[00:40:46] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true. That's true.
He's a cute, cute guy. And so I don't. I don't find him gross.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes love is worth taking a leap for.
[00:40:58] Speaker C: That's a good point too. That is very true. That is very true. Yeah.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Well, Ivanga, thank you so much for your time and more importantly, thank you for dedicating your life to this. If somebody wanted to make a difference with preventing infectious disease and are supporting your program, how would they learn more about that? Oh, that's.
[00:41:22] Speaker C: That's a great. I'm glad you mentioned that. So I think, you know, you can.
My email is really simple. It's just my first name, Ivanka Montana. Edu. But if you did go to Montana State and just did our department, microbiology and cell biology, you would be able to find me and I mean, I'm happy to. To chat with anybody in detail about some of these. Again, my expertise is bact pathogenesis. But, you know, I know when you and I first visited, you said, what about talking about viruses? And I said, I'll stay in my lane. You know, I'm not a virologist, but we do have virologists here that, you know, people are interested. I'm happy to hook them up with an experts in these field. And we have people that study the microbiome, which of course is a really interesting concept, and especially when you bring it in with infectious diseases. I do believe, you know, msu, we are a public university and you people that are interested should reach out.
We're here to actually offer our expertise.
[00:42:19] Speaker B: Well, thank you again and listeners, until next time.
Bye. Bye.
[00:42:26] Speaker C: Bye.
