Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What if your biggest turn on isn't confidence, chemistry, or even physical attraction?
What if it's curiosity?
Kayla here. And in this episode, I sat down with Elizabeth to compare notes on the unexpected qualities that attract us and the surprising ways those preferences have changed over time and really grown with us. As we've grown.
What starts as a conversation about dating quickly becomes a conversation about identity, growth, self awareness, and the stories we tell ourselves about what we want in a partner. Because sometimes the things we're attracted to aren't really about the other person at all. They're clues about who we're becoming. So welcome to imperfectly honest. Let's get to the episode.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: This is imperfectly honest. I'm Elizabeth, and after about four decades, I'm shifting from the person I always thought I should be to the person I really want to be. In part because I've learned to be honest both with myself and just about everybody I encounter. It's not always perfect. Sometimes it's a rocky road. But I'm learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might learn something too.
Hey, listeners, my friend Kayla is here today again back on the pod. Hey, Kayla, how are you? Hey, good, how are you?
I am doing really well and I'm glad you're here today. Kayla and I decided to talk about unexpected turn ons and turn offs.
I know, speaking for myself, I have been grateful to have had some honest friends who have given me some feedback about things that I was doing that could inadvertently turn people off.
I've also been glad to know the things that I do that turn people on that sometimes I don't even know about.
Kayla, did I get that right? Is that something you want to talk about today?
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. And I think really what sparked this conversation was a shared frustration we have around lack of curiosity from potential romantic partners, friends, really anyone who comes into our orbit. And I think we exist as two very curious individuals who really aim to ask interesting questions and things that help get to the heart of someone versus the very expected sort of surface level things. And when we kind of shared that and hit on that, especially in early moments of, of dating someone and getting to know them, it seemed like there might be a there there to explore together. So I'm excited to just dive in with you.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Agreed. Well, and that actually leads me to one of my top turns, which is the ability to argue both sides of an argument.
I think that that's one of my superpowers, that I can always see how my view might be wrong even When I think that it's right.
And I appreciate someone who can also do that, but who can also help me see some reasons that I don't, why my argument could be right or wrong as well.
I kind of had a little bit of a riff with somebody that I was dating somewhat recently, and I just had the realization that he had a completely polar opposite viewpoint of mine. And I could see why he had come to that conclusion and could accept that he felt differently than me, but he couldn't do that for me. And that felt really disconnective.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: As you're sharing that, it makes me think that one of the things I really appreciate in any kind of human dynamic is that ability to sort of oscillate between teacher and student and share that role.
Be in a space where you can offer that new insight, perspective, teach, kind of lead, but then also be able to receive that, genuinely receive that, reflect on it, grow from there and vice versa. Being able to switch between those roles and what you're saying, it really resonates with me because having spent the majority of my career working in pr, I feel that I can really look at a challenge or, or an opportunity, something in front of me and be able to really evaluate pretty quickly both sides and argue both sides. And it's why I really appreciate having people in my corner who can hold up that mirror and call my bullshit too.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Absolutely.
And in the spirit of arguing the other side of my argument, I have some people in my life who rarely can see myself the story.
And that causes a lot of frustration.
But I also think that it makes me a much more empathetic person. And I also think that it helps me argue my side of the argum. It's like I want to naturally just keep trying and trying to better articulate why I'm right, which is a whole other story of sometimes you just need to drop the desire to be right and just let it go. But I think that there is some value in being able to clearly articulate your point of view. And I am grateful for those people in my life who can always see my side of the story. And I'm actually been asking myself whether that's an important quality in a partner, to be able to see both sides of the argument, at least sometimes, but not always to encourage me to be better.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I think that's a good question.
And what. What comes up, as I hear you say that is. I'm reminded of Brene Brown's comment that clear is kind and maybe it's less about being Able to see and argue both sides, but just be clear on whatever your stance is and whatever your kind of feedback is.
I mean clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And so the more that we can just own our perspectives, our feelings, our expectations and communicate that succinctly, I think the better, the better people we show up as.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: What are some of your non obvious turn ons?
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Non obvious. That makes me like second guess some of them. But I think you gotta love dogs. Like I am an animal lover and I've always had dogs. I've grown up with dogs. They're a big part of how I enjoy the world.
Getting them outside and exercising. And if you don't love dogs, that's kind of a deal breaker for me. Kind of hand in hand in that I just really appreciate someone who values movement in an intentional way. Getting out and hiking and biking and really treating their body with a lot of kindness, maintaining it and taking that on as, as a priority. Eating well and being conscious of sleep and all of those things. And I think kind of an extension of that, eating well.
Maybe this is a non obvious one, but I think that it's really attractive when somebody can look at food beyond nourishment and really get excited about it, get curious about where the ingredients came from, maybe what the story behind the recipe, the intention and care that went into creating that dish and having a balance of flavors and colors and textures. And another one that I think is really important to me is finding a man who has close male friendships. It is just so attractive to me when a man can look at another man and say I love you and just like really show up in a deeply like committed and intimate friendship.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I underscore the need for male friendships and I underscore the ability to be happy when your partner is away for a while.
I don't like feeling like I'm responsible for somebody else's social life and somebody else's happiness. I like to feel like I'm icing on the cake.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that very much so. I think, you know, that's, that's a really important one. There are a lot of reasons I think in the world to,
[00:09:06] Speaker B: to just
[00:09:06] Speaker A: take on maybe a negative view, but when you can wake up and consciously choose sunshine over rain clouds the majority of your days and fill them up in ways that really move you forward and hopefully those are ways that align with someone you really care about too. It's just, it's really beautiful. You know, Esther Perel talks about in relationship, we're Often playing one of two roles. You're either the person who's afraid of feeling suffocated or you're the person who's afraid of being abandoned. And understanding how you're showing up can, I think, really help, just help you be more aware of what some of those traits might be. And she does point out that not only can that dynamic switch within the container of the same relationship over time, but it can be different with different people. Is there one of those kind of ways like that you feel like you maybe over index and show up more as the person who's afraid of being suffocated or the person who's afraid of being abandoned?
[00:10:17] Speaker B: You know, I've honestly been both. Yeah, I think it is kind of dependent upon the situation, but I think in general I'm self confident and I'm comfortable being alone.
But I do think that it's a sign that it isn't right if I'm feeling more concerned about being being suffocated than I am about not having enough time with somebody and vice versa. I think polarity is important in romance, and so I don't want to feel completely comfortable because I think that actually takes away some of the spark.
But when I'm constantly feeling uncomfortable, anxious, or concerned that I'm going to be suffocated or abandoned, that's typically a sign that it isn't right.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel it when it's not right?
Sort of instantly. Do you. Do you kind of know, like, if you meet someone on a first date, do you know within the first 10 minutes? Like, yeah, this isn't really going to go anywhere romantically, but maybe I'll have a really nice time. Or are you a slower burn to get to that point?
Sure.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: You know, I'm still fairly nascent in my dating experience, really. I.
I like sales and I like to track my funnel, if you will.
So I recently looked at all the dates that I've gone on and thought it through, and I've gone on exactly 20 since I've been divorced, and only one of them has turned into a meaningful relationship. So I can't say that I have enough experience to say my feelings on that.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. Do you think that only one turned into a serious relationship because you just weren't feeling it with these other people, or did you just not give them enough time to really reveal what the potential was?
[00:12:16] Speaker B: I think that the other ones were a clear no.
I did give them some time. It just wasn't right.
Yeah, but you know, in thinking about this podcast there are some obvious turn ons which show up in non obvious ways.
Is one example. Confidence is an obvious turn on.
And I had this experience where this guy was interested in me. And I don't know how to say this without sounding brash, but I think that I have a fairly objective view of my level of attractiveness and this person was a few notches down from me, objectively speaking.
And from the moment that I met him, he just showed up with full conviction that he had enough value for me and that he was sure that he could deliver an experience that I wouldn't regret.
And that level of confidence was very sexy. And when I first met him I thought no way. Like this is a clear no.
And he turned me around. I have to say.
Conversely, I had this experience the other day where this guy reached out to me on Hinge, the dating app and said, whoa, good looking, go easy on us not so hot guys.
You're just intimidating or something like that. And I thought what a turnoff. Like, I mean in all honesty, he wasn't attractive enough for me, but it was a clear no. When he did that there was no chance there might have been a window or there might have been a way for me to thought like he's not somebody who I feel attracted to, but maybe there's somebody in my circle who would be attracted to this person.
And after he did that, I just really had no desire to connect whatsoever.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: He gave you an easy out.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: You know, it's such a fine line and a balance where I agree, I mean confidence is incredibly attractive and so I, I really just don't appreciate when someone over indexes in a self deprecating capacity.
I think there's, you know, you can be, you can be humble and you can be kind of cheeky and sort of cute, but self deprecation to me it just indicates low self worth and that you have a bad relationship with yourself that you don't really like yourself. And I think ultimately I really like myself and I would like to find a partner who really likes themselves too genuinely.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
Another unexpected turn off is I've been meeting men who are getting out of long term relationships, sometimes 30 year marriages and they're not that interested in dating other people.
And I guess I would have thought that somebody who wanted to really just focus on me would have been a turn on.
But when you're getting out of a 30 year relationship and trying to find yourself again and figure out what you want, it's actually a Turn off.
How do you feel about that?
[00:15:59] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. I think that it always makes me pause and I'm like, well, do you really like me or just the idea of me?
Because what you know and what you are comfortable with is partnership. And so there's this. We gotta fill this whole. Fill this absence space before real feeling, real loneliness settles in. It does really make me pause. Absolutely.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: How do you feel when conversely, someone is dating a few people and then they meet you or dating somebody else casually and then they meet you?
How does that affect your attraction?
[00:16:43] Speaker A: You know, I don't know that it like factors in, like good or bad. When you're just getting to know someone, there is a little bit of an expectation that there's likely, you know, other people that they're spending some time with and hanging out with. It's what happens if you start to really feel something that you want to take action on.
I feel like you would see it as almost a, like a challenge, like if you're dating other people. I want to win this and be the lead role.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know if I need to be the lead rule, but I do kind of like a little bit of a challenge. I like to know that I gotta work a little bit.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: It's a very human, like, I think, primal response, for sure.
Here's a question I've been thinking about is do you walk into a room or a first date and assume that the person likes you or assume that they do not?
[00:17:50] Speaker B: I've never thought about that.
I guess I don't really have any expectations when they first walk in.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: How about you?
[00:18:01] Speaker A: I think that I really try to show up in a space of let's assume that they like me. Because I do think that that raises my own level of confidence and authenticity, magnetism. Like I start showing up in a way that feels the most me.
But if I'm particularly attracted to someone, I do get a little bit of that self doubt where I'm like, oh boy, I don't know.
Am. Am I good enough here? And that is something that I found creeps in from time to time.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Well, I. I think that self worth is something that people can sense as far as what your feelings of your own self worth are. And I try to be conscious of that. And it's. It's hard not to be self conscious, I think. Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Is it something?
For me, it's pure, like physical attraction. That's what will just like make me get caught up in my head a little bit. Is that the Same for you or is there another quality or trait that maybe like, gives you a moment of pause?
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Well, I think that there's definitely an initial reaction to physical attraction.
I had a state yesterday. This guy got out of the truck. Truck. And it was an immediate wow, I want to know this guy kind of thing.
And conversely, I had an experience a couple weeks ago where this guy got out of his car and he did not look like his pictures. And I felt disappointed.
And then I thought, well, let's, let's just see what we can learn from this experience and maybe you'll need a new friend or something like that. And as we started to talk, his personality was so strong that I actually started to feel more of a gravitational pull toward him. I ultimately decided that there wasn't enough physical attraction there to make it work for me.
But he really moved my needle, I guess.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool. I think you've hit on this. You've hit on this a couple of times now, so I'd love to just unpack it a little bit more. But we've talked about how, you know, you can't always judge a book by its cover. And so you see someone, you're like, I don't know if, if the attraction is there, but then they show up with a tremendous amount of confidence that really owns the room. Or this other example you just shared, you know, you revealed more of his character and personality that started to win you over.
Are there specific character traits or way that a man can show up that, that does move that needle and sort of overcome the, the question mark around the physical attraction that really actually grows it for you?
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I'm especially attracted to men who believe that they can make things happen and that they can figure things out and that it's their job to find their own happiness.
Actually, that date that I went on yesterday with the guy that I was really attracted to, he started talking immediately about how he is leaving a long term marriage. And he's been doing a lot of reading and thinking and having a lot of conversations with people to figure out what works for them and their marriage and in their relationships and how might he apply that to what he wants and thinking a lot about what went wrong with his previous relationship and what went right and how he wants to do things differently in the future. And he had also talked to a lot of his friends who were single, who were dating for the first time. And even though he didn't have a lot of experience, he had done the work to figure out what he Wanted figure out how to show up at a date, how to be in a modern dating world. Conversely, I had this date with this guy who super nice guy, salt of the earth.
And he kept saying like, you know, I've left a long term marriage and I really don't even know what to do here. And this dating app stuff is such a mystery for me, I feel totally lost. And he kept saying that and it was such a turn off, especially in a world where we have access to information at our fingertips. You know, maybe you don't know what to do on a dating profile. So ask, ask Gemini or do a five minute Google search or ask a friend, like don't tell me that you're totally lost and expect me to just give you a pass for that.
It's so unattractive.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
So I hear that and I keep coming back to this notion of curiosity and you are truly one of the most curious individuals I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.
I benefit from your questions and your provocations almost daily and it just makes me pause and kind of like wonder, are we looking to find essentially like those mirrors of us, like who I want to be, is that aligned with who I want to find?
And I pose this question to you knowing that you've given a lot of thought to who it is you're looking for. You've shared imperfectly honest posts about it and continue to evolve the list of traits and things that you're looking for in a partner. So where, where is that balance and kind of how does it add up?
[00:24:13] Speaker B: Well, I'm not sure is my honest answer. I can argue both sides of the story. It feels really nice for me to be in conversations with people who are as curious as me.
And it feels challenging in a healthy way to be with people who aren't as curious and open minded as me.
And my mind is a busy place. Yes, I am curious and I often think of a hundred questions that I would like to ask people in my day before I've even had breakfast.
And so having someone who is equally as curious and has equally as busy of mind as mine is not always good. I had the opportunity to spend a week with somebody who has an even busier mind and more creative mind and more curious mind than mine. And it was really fun and I was exhausted afterward. I don't think that that's sustainable. I think for me, actually having somebody who quiets my mind and helps me just take a moment to breathe and laugh is a real compliment to me.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I Can see that someone who just, who grounds, who can maybe have more of a focused dialogue instead of one that's like just jumping to that next question that lands in your head.
[00:25:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I also just feel open to the idea that I may not know what I need and want and that that may ebb and flow and it may change through d different seasons of my life. I had a really good date with a guy who has two children.
And I felt certain that I did not want to be in a relationship with people who have children.
And I no longer believe that to be true. And one of my surprising turn ons actually is dads who really want to protect their children. I feel like I have an innate attraction to that that's been wired into me.
[00:26:36] Speaker A: No, I agree with that too. There was a really long period of time where I didn't think that I wanted to date a man with children because I don't want to birth my own children. That's just not something that's interesting to me.
And I dated someone who really open changed my perspective on it. It made me realize I can actually be open to it for a very similar reason. When you see a man in that like very protector capacity and in that just kind of divine masculine energy, it's, it's a, it's very attractive.
Are there other things that sort of over time have shifted for you? Things that you kind of thought weren't turn ons that now are, or things that weren't turn offs now are?
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I had this experience two weeks ago. I showed up at this date and it felt like I had gone home because the guy looked like a venture capitalist that I would have met in San Francisco. He just sort of played the part. He had the shoes, the socks, the shirt, all these things. And for those listeners who don't know, I'm a venture capitalist. I've kind of slowly transitioned out of that world, but spent the last decade as a venture capitalist in Boulder, Colorado. And he just had this demeanor about him that he was asking a lot of questions and in a rapid fire pace. And he wanted to know what my interests were and what, what I've done and sort of what my resume was and all these things. And I found myself just kind of feeling like I was riding a bike again, that I knew how to answer those questions, I knew how to play that role.
And when I left that date, I realized that I no longer want to be in conversations like that all the time. That I.
I am more interested in people who know how to see who I am as a core person rather than who want to see me for what I've done.
And I used to be more attracted to the latter.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. What a brilliant moment of reflection to be presented with. Because I think when things feel comfortable, I think it's important to ask, is it comfortable because it's familiar or is it comfortable because it's aligned and it's representative of really who I am and the conversations I want to have? And that just sounds like an example of a moment that was comfortable because it was familiar but didn't represent the woman that you have become and are becoming. And I love to be able to pause in those moments and just ask that question because I do think it's an important one.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: In the spirit of self awareness, is there something that you've done that you now see was probably a turn off to others that you've shifted your mindset about?
[00:29:53] Speaker A: You know, I, I'm reluctant to name anything because I think that I've done a really good job honoring where I'm at as my most authentic self.
And it hasn't been perfect, but it's been true to me. And if it's aligned with you, then that means that we're meant to spend some time together. And if it's not, it's probably because we're just not synced up in that way. So I personally am not particularly analytical in that sense of where could I have done better? Where could I have, you know, done less or done more? If I am in relationship with someone and there are ways that the relationship can, can benefit from being aware of maybe some of those nuances. But I think early on in dating and just getting to know people as humans and kind of sussing them out.
No, I don't, I don't think too much in that space.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: What about you?
Well, I can see your perspective and see how you've come to that conclusion and really appreciate, appreciate your self acceptance and resignation to the fact that when things are meant to be, they're meant to be. And I really think that way. In all honesty, I always am thinking, what could I have done differently? And what went wrong there? And all those things.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: And I always love it because you're like, you know, I, I took a poll and I'm like looking for data and it's, I think it's why I so enjoy our conversations because we do come from, I think, some different headspaces and heart spaces. So I'm so curious how like, what has come up for you in this. And often it does illuminate something within myself.
[00:31:44] Speaker B: Well, one thing is that I spent a lot of my life trying to figure out how to optimize my performance in all aspects of life. So I figured out that, you know, if I woke up early and started working right away, that that was often my best time for brain power. And I designed my life around that. And I kind of figured out, you know, well, I do the best if I run after two days off of my legs and just all these things.
And it is hard to fit another person, especially when you are first dating, into all of those neat and tidy boxes. And so something that I used to do is they'd come back and say, hey, I'd love to meet up. How about 4pm on Wednesday? And then I'd think to myself, 4pm on Wednesday is when you're supposed to do your strength training workout. Let's come back and see if he could do 6pm or something like that. And, you know, sometimes that's okay, but there's a lot of value in just saying yes and allowing myself to defer to a man. Sometimes I think that there is an innate need inside me to defer occasionally to men.
And I think that there is innate need and men sometimes to make the first move and to be the ones to set the time and place and things. And I used to really fight that because I thought that that was sort of spitting in the face of the women who had worked for equal rights before.
And now I'm just resigning to the fact that I think that there's something innate about that dynamic. And.
Oh, I totally.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: I think there's biological thing there of. I mean, in. At risk of completely oversimplifying it, I think that there's this, like, feminine desire to be held and this kind of more masculine desire to.
To lead and to protect. And so when we are able to honor those qualities in ways that feel respectful and aligned with, you know, the individuals, then there's some really positive things that happen there. And similarly, Elizabeth, you know, I think I personally set off on this path of, you know, really wanting to be this feminist and take charge and all of these things, which served me really well and some ways. But when it came to dating, it was like I was maybe inadvertently denying some of those just natural behaviors and orders of things. And as I've softened in getting older and just reflecting, I'm realizing that one of the things that never turned me on, but now very much does, is when a man will make that plan, Suggest the date, the time, the place, make the reservation, you know, open for all of those things that I kind of turned my nose up before, but now I'm like, no, that actually feels really nice and feels like it's soothing. Something that's just hardwired inside of me that I just denied for a long time.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Agreed. Agreed.
Well, we're learning.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: We are.
Are. That is a very imperfectly honest comment.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm curious to see if we get some comments on some of the things that we've said, and I'm curious to just have more conversations with others, because there are some things that are innate, and men and women and gender doesn't always fit into neat and tidy boxes. I'm becoming increasingly more convinced that it's extremely fluid, and I welcome other perspectives and would love to hear what people have to think.
And, Kayla, thank you so much for being here and for appreciating my curiosity, but I also appreciate yours and how you always push my curiosity. So thank you.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: Thank you, Elizabeth. I always appreciate how you challenge and help me see the other perspective. So stay curious.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Stay curious, my friends. Exactly. Yes.
All right, Kayla. Well, it's a beautiful day, so hopefully we can get out there. And let's sign off.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: Bye. Bye. Thank you.
