Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey there, Elizabeth.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: Hey, Sheila. So we've been friends for what, nearly 14 years now, I think about that.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Although we've been really good friends for about half of that. But that's kind of a part of our story, isn't is?
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Well, at least for now, we're really good friends in large part because we've learned to be honest with each other, but it's not always perfect.
Nevertheless, we're learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might too.
[00:00:32] Speaker C: The imperfectly honest podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. This podcast does not provide medical advice and is not intended as a substitute for the diagnosis and treatment provided by a licensed, trained physician, psychotherapist, or other health professional.
This podcast expresses the individual opinions of Elizabeth, she, Sheila, and their guests and does not constitute professional, medical or mental health services in sharing their experiences. Names, places, and other identifying information may be changed to protect the privacy of the people involved.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Hey there.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Hey, Sheila. How are you?
I'm good.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: How about yourselves?
Pretty good.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Winter has finally come to Montana. We've had extraordinarily warm weather and it just sort of turned overnight. So I'm actually out on a walk with no wind, looking at some snowy peaks. It's quite a nice day, actually.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah, it's sunny and I think in the 60s here in Maryland, and we've had a nice run of pretty warm weather for November now.
So anyway, yeah, nice fall day.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: Ah, I love fall.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah, me too.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: So we've had a lot of conversations recently about relationships, and as I've shared before, I was with my now ex husband for 20 years and left my marriage a year ago and have been dipping my toes in the water in the dating world. And I'm in what I guess I would call a relationship right now. I'm not exactly sure how to define it, but it's a meaningful relationship with. With somebody that I've been getting to know pretty well. And Jill, you've been really great and listening to me about some of the things that I've been thinking through on this journey.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: I myself haven't been in a relationship since, shoot, 20, 2012.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Is that right?
[00:02:49] Speaker A: That's like 12 years. But my memory serves me, so I do remember. And some of our conversations have actually been a little bit of a trigger to thinking about what it was like. And some of the other life circumstances that I've gone through triggered it a little. Being ill is a good trigger for that because being in a relationship looks very different when you're not feeling well. So that's why I think for both of us, a topic talking about relationships. But if you want to paraphrase what you're thinking this topic is going to be, go right ahead.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Well, sure. I mean, I think we're just going to have an organic conversation like we always do. And for me, I most wanted to have this conversation because I feel like you've given me a lot of good advice over the past few months that others might benefit from. And also I just thought it might be interesting for us to both process our thoughts out loud.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah, sounds good.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: When I left my marriage, I felt pretty certain that I wanted to be in a relationship where I had a significant amount of my own space. We recorded an episode previously about living solo by choice and I was pretty certain that I wanted to live solo by choice. I was pretty certain that I wanted to spend a significant time, a significant amount of time away from my partner because I'm independent. I'm also an introvert. I recharge by spending some time by myself.
And I found that challenging in previous relationships.
And so I just kind of thought that I had a very clear idea of what I wanted in a relationship. And I met somebody that just really blew up a lot of those hypotheses.
And it's just causing me to rethink both what I want in a relationship, but also what can work in a relationship. Because one of the things that's been interesting with this experience is, and the experience of dating in my 40s is that I have the courage and also many of the people that I've met have the courage to really be ourselves and to have honest conversations.
And it's helped me just clarify some of the things that didn't work for me in the past and some of the things that might work in the future and thought some of those lessons might be helpful to others.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Now I again feel kind of that there's a lot of thoughts that I have in my head. In looking back, I would say I've had. I've had two of what I've considered relationships. That one was my 15 year marriage and the other was an 11 year relationship that was kind of on and off through most of that time. And at one point towards the end was actually long distance.
And I'm probably going to access more of the things I learned from that than during my marriage. Not that I didn't learn a whole lot from my marriage about relationships, but we had children pretty quickly and throughout the whole marriage we had the children and I think that puts a kind of different spin when you're talking about what the perks of a relationship are and not so I feel like any, any comments I'm going to have are probably going to be about that most recent one, if that helps.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
So what do you think is the most significant shift from your marriage to that second relationship that made it more of a healthy relationship for you?
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Well, I don't know. You know, I. I honestly hate to compare them because as I said, I had three children. We were, you know, we were parents to three children. So I'm not trying to dodge the question, but I just.
The comparison of them, I, I would probably prefer talking more about maybe the most recent relationship. The things that I really took away are perks in a relationship.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: And we didn't live together.
Just as an aside, you know, I, I know with some relationships there are what would be considered perks that have to do with like financial. You're sharing costs. That's a great perk. It really is.
Another, another perk is just having somebody there.
It doesn't have to be a living situation, but it's somebody's prioritizing you to some extent and you are their person kind of thing. Not to the exclusion of others, but you know that you rate pretty high.
You know, I got your back, you got my back kind of thing.
You're probably experiencing it right now, the getting to know somebody who has a different personality, different interests, and kind of being introduced to their world.
And you know, for me, that relationship, it was with somebody who was very athletic and was actually into triathlons, Iron man triathlons.
I did not get into Ironman triathlons, but I actually became more athletic and I did a sprint triathlon during the time that we were together. And that was, that was a perk like, that introduced me to something so different about myself that I'd never accessed before.
And I guess the last thing that I'm thinking of is it's just there's somebody there to have fun with.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: If you're so prone to. When I categorize it, I'm looking at the positive relationships because people can be with somebody who they don't have any fun with. But my memories of that relationship is a lot of fun at a lot
[00:09:10] Speaker B: of times that's resonating with me.
I think one of the things that I've missed about being in a relationship is that it feels really easy to have someone to do things with.
So, for instance, when I was single, I was feeling like If I don't have plans on Saturday night, I'm just going to be home alone. I better make plans on, like, Tuesday so that I'm not alone. And then Saturday night would come around and I would feel like I don't actually want to go out tonight.
It feels more fun to stay in. And I, for me, I don't really like making a lot of advanced commitments. I like being able to sort of flow with my creativity and with my energy levels and all of those things.
And, you know, that doesn't always sync up with a partner. But just as one example, we were supposed to go to this Halloween party on Friday night and had costumes and everything. I was really looking forward to it.
And Friday came along and I was exhausted. I just was not up for it. And luckily he was exhausted and just wasn't up for it either. And. And we ended up just having a really nice dinner and hanging out, the two of us. And it didn't feel like there was any stress in the planning of it. It just sort of flowed.
And I missed that. And I also recognize that it doesn't always work out that way. Like last Saturday night, I really wanted to go out and we went on this pretty long hike and his back was bothering him and I.
I took a shower and put makeup on and got all ready to go out and came out of the bathroom and he was like dead asleep on the couch.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: It just.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Just done. And that didn't feel great. But I feel like the.
The thing that worked for. For me in that scenario is that it didn't feel like a sacrifice to just stay in that night because we had had a lot of other fun together, you know, a nice hike and a nice night the night before and stuff like that. And so I felt content being in.
And for me, it's not just having someone to have fun with, but it's also having someone who you like just staying in with as well.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: I. You know, I do have a thought because as you were starting to talk about what happened this past weekend with the party and that you were both in sync, that you were both tired, the question I was going to ask is, what if he wasn't tired? What if you were tired but he wasn't? Do you have the kind of relationship or is he the kind of person who could adjust in the way that he would just go to the party by himself?
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And the reason I'm asking it is because I feel as if that could Be something positive in a relationship that you don't feel like you're constantly making concessions or compromising because of the other person's needs. Like you're able to adapt, but the adapt, like what happened the week before is you kind of just said, okay, you know, I'll. We'll stay in. And that could have been perfectly reasonable. You know, this week it was a party. There were other people who would be out and about.
I understand that the week before, it wasn't like you just wanted to say, oh, all right, I'll go out by myself and hang out somewhere I'll go to. But I guess when I think of the benefits or the.
The things that went well in the relationship I had, it was the thought that we weren't like, joined at the hip.
And to me, that's a good relationship.
It doesn't mean that you have to have a ton of separate interests and you're always going separate ways, but it just means that maybe you prefer doing stuff with your partner, but if it's not something they're up for, you have other options to do what you want to do.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I learned a lot about that from my marriage, actually. And I have two thoughts to share before I go into this. So the first thing is, one of the things that I've really appreciated about this experience is that we've been really open about talking about our previous relationships and what we've learned from that.
And I have tried to do that in relationships in the past, and it hasn't gone well because there was jealousy there or just a discomfort and having an honest and open conversation about previous relationships.
And for me, having the experience of being able to do that has really helped us clarify what might work and what might not work with the two of us.
And then second, I also want to be really careful about comparing relationships because I have a lot of respect from my ex husband. I am grateful for the 20 years that we spent together, and I learned a lot from that.
And one of the things that I learned from that relationship is just what you're talking about. So we had different interests and we both supported each other and having those interests, but over time, it became too much and that it almost always for me felt hard to find something that we were both equally enjoying.
It always sort of felt like I was making a sacrifice or he was making a sacrifice.
And I felt equally uneasy about the amount of sacrifice that I was making and the amount of sacrifice that he was making.
And I feel like being able to find that balance in which you support your own interest, but that it just naturally sinks enough that it doesn't feel hard.
I think, you know, that example of when I really wanted to go out and ended up just staying in, that felt like compromise versus sacrifice. And I feel like that's a really thin line and something to pay attention to. And in relationships.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, the situational part of it, you have separate interests, but sometimes, you know, you go along with that person's interests.
But the emotional part, where somebody is synced with you in a more not cerebral way, I guess, emotional way, where, you know, you're okay with the person not doing everything with you when you want to do it. Like, it's not just, okay, first we're going to do what I want to do, then we're going to do what you want to do, then we're going to do what I want to do, then we're going to do what you want to do. And so it's constantly a compromise.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: And I've seen relationships like that, and I think they're challenging because somebody's always waiting to get their fun going.
[00:17:21] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: At the expense of, you know, not enjoying the fact the other person's having fun. I mean, am I explaining that? Well, I don't.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. And I think that it is easy to make sacrifice when you're in that honeymoon stage. It becomes harder over time.
Oh, yeah. And, yeah. And for me, I think the thing that I have to catch myself about is that, you know, we both share this, Sheila, that we're people pleasers, and I can please to the point that I lose too much of myself and give away too much of myself. And I. I think really, a lot of the difference in this relationship, it's not just because it's with a different person than I was with before, but it's also because I've grown. I'm a different person. I've done a lot of work on myself. And I feel like when you're in a place that you can give because you want to give, rather than because you feel obligated to give.
And when you do feel that you're giving in a way that you don't want to, then if you can communicate that that is also really healthy in a relationship. So sometimes, you know, bad stuff happens and you've got to go to the hospital to be there with your husband when you really don't want to do that. And that. That's just sort of life, I guess. You don't have to do it. But most. But I. Oh, yeah, you know, most people will do that.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah, you would hope. You would hope that emotionally you want to do it where. Physically, yeah, it's not fun being in a hospital. But, you know, you have the kind of relationship where it's like, you want to be there for that person.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Right, Right.
So I think when you can say, like, hey, I want to be here for you, and this is hard for me because of whatever reason that is helpful.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Okay. You talked about. I was so glad you brought up people pleasing, because I know for me, that's probably a part of why, you know, it's been 12 years, and I hesitate even thinking about trying to move forward and create another relationship because I know what happens when I get in them is that I'm not subservient by any means. I like pleasing people. But it. It goes too far in that I put aside my own stuff because I kind of want to. And for the most part, I can.
But I'm old enough now and wise enough now to understand that that probably wasn't always good for me. But happily, I kind of feel like recognizing that will make me be different if I ever do decide, gee, maybe.
Maybe there is a relationship in my future.
And so I just. The people pleasing thing, I kind of wanted to get that out.
So, again, it's like discovering how you can be in a really. I mean, you just talked about it, and then I just talked about it. We're recognizing that sometimes when we are in a relationship, there are things that we do, but the other person hasn't really said they need, but we think they might need it. And so we're. We're willing to give it, and it might be to our own detriment and having that honest conversation saying, I mean, the hospital thing was a little of an outlier because, you know, somebody's going to the hospital, it's like they want you to go, but, you know, there could be a lot of other things that somebody would be doing, and it would be okay if you didn't go with them, but you might have thought you needed to go with them.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: I've learned to ask before helping. We've talked about this a little bit on the podcast, but some things that I actually want to do because they feel good for me to do that would be helpful for the other person may not be received that way.
And so I definitely think being able to ask and understanding patterns of what sort of things feel helpful, what sort of things feel annoying, what sort of things are totally a deal breaker is helpful.
And, you know, I guess Sheila just changed gears a little bit. I'm curious. We've talked about the perks for you. What do you think would be the most challenging thing to be in a relationship at this point for you?
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Well, I mean, that's hard to say without knowing the personality of the person I'd be in a relationship with, because everybody's different. So I, I don't think I can answer that. I know what some of the more challenging things in past relationships was, and I, you know, I'm not sure I want to get into any of that stuff thinking your personalities together. I can be general.
You know, like I, I said, if somebody likes to do things pretty consistently with the other person, like they want that other person to be the one that does things with them, they're not really willing to branch out.
To me, that's. That would be a tough one for me.
And I guess it wasn't what I would consider a relationship, but I did. I have done some online dating and met people through that and briefly kind of gone out with them.
And somebody who I dated, we dated for maybe a couple of months, and their level of wanting to do things together and, you know, just always be in touch. And I just discovered that would be challenging for me.
I think I enjoy more of it doesn't. Like I said a little while ago, you don't have to be joined at the hip. Like, I look at my parents relationship, they were married for like almost 70 years, like 65.
And I mean, they did everything together.
My mother didn't even drive, so I mean, some of it was necessary, but you just never, I mean, the only time I think they were apart, and I'm not saying this is what worked well for both or one or the other, but was when she came and helped each of her daughters. There were three of us with our, you know, right after we gave birth. And other than that, they were always together.
And some people like that. I mean, they do. And unfortunately, those people might be in a relationship with somebody who doesn't like that.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: They're kind of in it.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:43] Speaker A: And so I guess kind of that's answering your question about if I did have a relationship, what would I consider the most challenging if that personality of that person was that.
I don't, I don't think it would last.
I don't know that I would even beyond. If I could get a sense of it with the, you know, first few times that I was with this person, then I'd say, all right, you know, swipe left, right?
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
For me, I feel most nervous about giving up, being able to do what I want to do exactly when I want to do it.
And I think that there's a happy medium there and what we were talking about before and respect each other's boundaries in space. But I had this experience yesterday in that I really wanted to get out of the house and go to the gym. And I like going to the gym with this person, and he wanted to go with me. And I said, so when do you think you're going to be ready to go? Because he had a couple of things that he had to take care of. He was like, right. So I, you know, stretched and got myself ready to go and still wasn't ready.
And two hours passed, and I. Oh, my gosh. Like, I gotta get out of here. So then I said, I need to get out of here and go for a walk or something, and then I'll come back and go to the gym.
30 minutes. And he really needed an hour. And I totally understand all that stuff, because I have that problem, too. I understand that people do that stuff for me, too. Sheila, you've done that for me many times where I think that I'm going to be ready at a certain time, and it takes me much longer than I anticipate to get the stuff done that I need to get done. So I have empathy for that. And I really needed to get out of the house. And he did say, like, you know, feel free to go on your own if you want. But I most wanted to go with him. And so I went, like, three hours after I wanted to go, and I was so glad that I went with him. It was really nice.
So I think I just kind of need to work through that. And I. I think I had this expectation of myself that I'm gonna know how to get this perfect when I've been living on my own for over a year.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: No, I understand. And, you know, the whole concept of.
It's funny that you. You did admit that, you know, he kind of was doing to you what you've done to other people. But it's hard on your end when you're on the receiving end of it. And maybe it did help you understand a little bit more so people can work those things out. One solution is just, you know, you set a time, like, you don't just say, yeah, you want to go work out. Oh, all right, when I get this stuff done. Because then it's. Then it's really And I think you and I have tried to do that. Like, I've probably been more vigilant saying, well, give me a time.
Because, yeah, it is difficult for a person, you know, because you can't really do anything if you're that person waiting.
Because you don't know if any minute they're going to say, I'm ready, you know, but that's problem solving about a specific thing. But it's an issue that comes up in relationships. And if you're both kind of in agreement that it's probably important to set kind of time frames, you know, not rigidly like, okay, we're going at 2. Oh my gosh, it's 2:05.
We didn't go at 2. You know, you're not going to do that.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Right.
But there again, I think honest communication is helpful because he said to me, I have some stuff that I have to get out the door before I could do this.
And I'm not sure how long it's going to take. And, you know, I.
I totally understand that. I've been in that position many times and it still felt hard. So, yeah, I think, like you said, you just work it out. And actually it might be a conversation for the two of us on how we can better find a balance with that too, because it's something that I feel you've been really flexible with me on, and I just kind of like to check in on that at another time.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: I appreciate that. And again, but when it's important enough to me, I usually do say, could you give me a time frame? And we'll both be available during that time frame. So again, as you said, it's kind of honest communication between people. And that's circling back to when you said what can be the most challenging thing in a relationship. It's when somebody is not comfortable being that great a communicator.
And, you know, you kind of touched on it too, saying this relationship like it's the first time somebody is actually willing to delve into past relationships, talk about them, talk about how they felt.
And I think that's a really important part of syncing with somebody.
Not to say you have to always do that. I'm just saying you can have two people who don't really like to do that, and that's good. Like, that can be a successful relationship. If neither of them are the kind of person that likes to analyze everything and get into all their emotional feelings, whatever, I think that can work. Also, it's not a relationship that I'd be comfortable with. But to each his own.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Great. Well, I feel I want to share two more things. And then I have one last question for you.
So the thing that I learned about the topic we were just discussing is that communication doesn't always work, even when you feel like you have all the tools and you're doing things correctly and you're being articulate.
So I think that communicating is one of my best talents.
I also have educated myself on how to communicate in a way that is healthy in all sorts of relationships, business and friendships and romantic relationships. And I have had many experiences in which I feel that I am being totally clear and the person that I am trying to communicate with is consistently misunderstanding me.
And I think that that sometimes is just a sign that maybe you're not meant to be in a serious relationship with that person. I have some people like that in my life, and I'm grateful for them because it makes me a better communicator, because I have to try harder to communicate with them, and I have to accept that they may not see things the way that I see it, and they may not hear me in the way that I want to be heard, but I still learn something from that experience.
But when you have that in a serious, close relationship, it can be just really destructive over time when you consistently feel that you are unheard.
And there has been, you know, several instances in this relationship where I've communicated something I shouldn't say. Several. There have been some instances in this relationship where I've communicated something and that, you know, I need this or I want this. And they've said, I'm not willing to give you that and that that feels okay. But I felt heard and I was willing to compromise in that instance.
So I just kind of wanted to share that. That was a real learning for me. But before, before I share my last thought, is there any closing thought that you want to leave our listeners with on this topic?
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Well, I just, I. I did to what you just said in terms of communication.
The other piece of it is, and I found it myself, and I think we can all assess that. We may think that we're communicating in a way that the other person should be hearing us, but I think you touched on it like they're different.
They're a different person. So the way it lands, it might land the way they are. So it's not that they're not actively trying to listen and hear.
So I don't know if, if any of us can say, I'm a really good communicator. So when I talk to somebody and I really think I've parsed out exactly what I want to say. And yet they don't seem to be getting it. It's on them.
Yeah, I. I just had a. I guess push back a little bit with that because, yeah, everybody's different. In one of the blog posts I wrote, I said everybody digests things differently.
And I alluded, I alluded to, you know, the physical aspect of when people digest things differently. And, you know, hahaha.
You know, and if you try to, if you try to run with it immediately, it doesn't always work out well.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:23] Speaker C: Right.
[00:34:23] Speaker B: So.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: So anyway, that's. I mean, that's a part of relationships too. You could be with the person who it will work out with if you just take into account the way they hear things.
Sometimes may need a little tweaking on your communication part.
[00:34:40] Speaker B: Right, Yep.
And sometimes no matter how hard you try, you're just not going to be heard. And that's something to pay attention to.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, definitely. I agree with that 100%.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: The main thing that I've learned from this experience is that sometimes if you allow yourself to just do what feels right and to just be open to any experience, it's amazing what can come out of that. Because I just felt like at 43 years old, I had such a clear idea of what I was capable of doing, what I wanted to do, the kind of person that I wanted to do those things with. And this experience has just really pushed me beyond my limits in a very good way.
And I just feel like I've been able to experience that because I've done a lot of work on being more curious and being more open to hearing different perspectives and things like that. And I feel like that's the biggest growth that I've had as a person that has allowed me to have this experience.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: I just want to add, at 67, you said 43, and I thought I knew.
It never ends.
You can constantly be learning things about yourself.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Well, I hope so, because that's my favorite topic, is to talk about what I've learned about myself. So I hope it never ends.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: Good, good.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Thank you. Until next time.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: Okay, bye bye.
[00:36:24] Speaker C: The imperfectly honest podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only.
This podcast does not provide medical advice and is not intended as a substitute for the diagnosis and treatment provided by a licensed, trained physician, psychotherapist, or other health professional.
Note that notwithstanding that any of the guests on this podcast may be licensed professionals, no one on this podcast is providing or seeking to provide the listeners of this podcast with any medical or health services. You should not rely on the information, information, or content presented during this podcast and you should not make any health or medical related decision based in whole or in part on such information.
Consult a health care professional licensed in your state for all matters relating to your health and do not disregard any medical advice, diagnosis and or treatment provided by your healthcare professional.
This podcast expresses the individual opinions of Elizabeth, Sheila and their guests and does not constitute professional medical or mental health services in sharing their experiences. Names, places, and other identifying information may be changed to protect the privacy of the people involved.
