Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, Kayla here. And for this episode of Imperfectly Honest, Elizabeth invited me to join her for a conversation about body image.
And I don't know about you, but for me, body image is one of those topics that I think about nearly every day but rarely talk about and acknowledge out loud. That's why it felt really meaningful to sit down with Elizabeth and dig into that quiet mental inventory we keep about our bodies.
Everything from how we look to how we feel in our skin, to those stories that we tell ourselves along the way. Throughout the day, from disciplined routines and slipping back into old habits to that constant awareness of how our bodies change over time, Elizabeth and I really break down how body image shows up in our daily lives.
This is absolutely not a conversation about perfect solutions, really. It's this honest look at the complicated relationship that many of us, the two of us included, have with our bodies and the curiosity it takes to examine it. So, without further ado, on to the episode.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: This isn't Perfectly Honest. I'm Elizabeth, and after about four decades, I'm shifting from the person I always thought I should be to the person I really want to be, in part because I've learned to be honest both with myself and just about everybody I encounter. It's not always perfect. Sometimes it's a rocky road. But I'm learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might learn something, too.
[00:01:43] Speaker C: Hey, listeners.
My friend Kayla Gorski and I have had some conversations about body image and how we think about our own bodies, et cetera.
And that's always a topic that requires a little bit of imperfect honesty. So we thought it would be a good topic for our podcast today.
Kayla, thanks for being here.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Elizabeth. And this is absolutely a conversation that we've shared, gosh, on so many walks and so much of our time together. And I think that it's. It's largely because it is something that is always on my mind. I think that I am constantly taking inventory of my body in some capacity, regardless of what else is going on in my life and what is going on in the world at large.
I am just tuning in in some capacity to get that temperature check on. How am I feeling in. In my skin in this meat suit today?
Is it something that really occupies a lot of your waking hours, too?
[00:02:59] Speaker C: Yeah, and I guess it kind of depends on how you're defining it. So I think about the way that my body looks maybe, I don't know, five times per day. However, I have this pattern in which I Will stick to a pretty disciplined eating and exercise routine and I'll start to feel great and my body will look like I want it to look. And then I feel like, oh, I can just relax now and kind of go back to old habits, which doesn't really work. And I inevitably gain like a couple pounds, five pounds maybe from that process.
And then I get mad at myself. You've been here before, you know, this happens.
Yeah, this isn't new.
And then I start to look at my body and think about my body like 20 times a day.
But I am constantly thinking about how I'm feeling in my meat suit. As you beautifully articulated. I don't know if beautiful is the right word for that, but anyhow, I'm constantly thinking about how I'm feeling too.
I just shared with you before we hit record that today I'm just kind of feeling blah. Really no reason, just kind of one of those days, you know, I know logically that I have these days from time to time and that tomorrow I'll feel better.
And I can't help but sort of obsess about how I'm just not feeling great in my body today. It just isn't working in the way that I'd like it to.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: I think you, you hit on something really poignant when you acknowledged the way that you feel. And I think that's such a part of it too. Because when I think about body image image, there's a visual sort of cue that is associated with that and it's, it's easy to go down that path of well, how does it look, how does it appear? Thinking about just the external. And I think, you know, I was reflecting on this conversation a bit before we hit play and I was realizing that for me it has certainly been an evolution where I think it has been in that one dimensional visual space for different periods of my life. But now it really is.
It's less about how I look though that is important, and it is more about how do I feel? How do I feel in those pair of jeans? How do I feel in that bathing suit? How do I feel just waking up and walking around in whatever I happen to have on that day and just being out in the world, how do I feel in my skin and also just mentally, where am I pulling joy and satisfaction from? And is that coming from any kind of hang ups physically or anything like that too?
[00:06:01] Speaker C: Yeah. Do you feel like you have a healthy body image?
[00:06:07] Speaker A: I mean, the short answer is yes. And I think that it takes work.
I don't think that it comes naturally and super easy.
I think that I really work to maintain a healthy perspective on. On my body. And, you know, I think you. You touched on it just a. Just a minute ago when you were talking about the effort that it takes to maintain, you know, your body in. In. In a certain way. And, you know, and I agree with that. It's. I know, I know the things that I need to do to. To feel really great.
And that doesn't always happen. Sometimes you're on vacation or just, you know, you're. You're working really hard, really late, you're traveling somewhere where you can't necessarily fuel your body in the way that you want. And so some of the habits that you know are good, are powerful, are positive, just aren't available to you in those moments. And so I think I've had moments where I've spun out a little bit. I've been a little obsessive about not being able to do that. And now I think I have a lot more peace with it and just acknowledging, like, listen, it's all a bit of a pendulum where we kind of swing back and forth. And sometimes that pendulum just kind of hangs out in the middle and is static for a little bit. And then inevitably, something happens. A gust of wind comes along and blows it in a different direction again. But I think it's all about how am I just not getting negative, not.
Not getting obsessive in a way that feels like it's overtaking sort of my perspective in that moment and really just going, okay, this is what's happening in this moment. Tomorrow's another day. We'll revisit it tomorrow or the next day.
[00:07:57] Speaker C: And who do you strive for when you try to improve your body?
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. That's a good question. I think.
I think a younger version of me was definitely doing it for everyone except me. I was doing it more for boys who I had crushes on, and I wanted to like me. I was doing it for other girls, like peers, who I wanted to be accepted by. And now it is so deeply personal. It is less about others. I really could care less.
You know, what, what someone else thinks. I like compliments. Don't get me wrong. That always feels good. But I think it has shifted from external job to a deeply personal and internal one. And with age comes wisdom again. I think it's less about how it looks to myself, to others, and really more about how. How it feels, how I feel. Am I strong?
Can I accomplish this great feat outdoors or can I sleep really well in this body and can I wear that certain thing, that style that I really like and feel confident in?
What about you? Who are you striving to please with the state of your body?
[00:09:19] Speaker C: I would say the 14 year old me, which definitely was the least body confident version of me. I can remember really vividly that I had this high school friend who had this big mirror near the entrance to her home and she lived on a lake, so we were in bathing suits all the time. And you'd see that mirror in your bathing suit right when you walked in the door.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Right when you walked out the door. That's just like a recipe to start nitpicking.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: Right. And I can remember we'd walk past that mirror maybe 20 times in a, throughout the day and I would look every time and ask myself, am I skinnier yet? Is it happening? Am I skinnier yet? That was.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: Am I getting boobs yet?
[00:10:19] Speaker C: Yeah, well, funny enough, yeah, I don't know what happened to me, but I got boobs like right out of the gate in puberty and then they, they shrunk consistently after that. But I was, the 14 year old me was definitely wanting to look good for the boys.
[00:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah, you brought such a visual up when you talked about that mirror. And have you ever just been in a, in a dressing room like waiting for a friend of yours or someone else to kind of finish and if there's that sort of shared mirror area, it is like a universal thing that women do where you see them no matter how thin they are or, or not, you see them suck in their stomach, sort of like push out their chest, really work on that, that posture, pull back those shoulders. It's such a funny thing to see how we even within the limited kind of resources that we have in that moment in the dressing room, the way that we can conform and contort our bodies to start to reach towards this ideal that I think so many, so many people hold.
[00:11:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. And to answer your earlier question, I, or I guess it was my earlier question of who I do this for. The 14 year old version of me I would say was 90% focused on looking good for boys. Yeah.
And the 44 year old me is probably, if I'm honest, 50 just for me and 50% not just for men. I do like feeling like I have sex appeal, but I also like it for women and not really in a sexual way, just more.
Yeah, I like it.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: I totally get it. I totally get it. I mean you hear things, you hear things about how Someone's wearing something, like, for the girls. Right. Like, you see women out to dinner and they're wearing, like, the flashy, ostentatious thing that isn't. Like, a guy isn't going to appreciate it because maybe it's not flaunting a certain, you know, body part or whatever. Whatever. Right. But it's really artfully crafted, or it just has this, like, cool texture and pattern or ruffle or feather, whatever it is. And it's. I mean, I totally get that. I do think that the consideration we have for other women just to appreciate and admire and offer those compliments, too, is very valid.
[00:12:59] Speaker C: Yeah. I've gotten into this new habit where every time that I see a girl at the gym who looks really good, I go over and say, I just want to tell you that you look great. And I have realistic idea of what it takes to look as good as you look.
And I can tell that you have put a lot of work into it, and you look great.
And it's been interesting to me to hear how different women respond to that.
Yeah.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: What are some of the responses you've gotten?
[00:13:32] Speaker C: The best one is this woman. She was maybe.
Maybe 50, and she looked me straight in the eye and said, thanks.
It is a lot of work, and I do look great, and I appreciate you noticing it.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Damn, I love that. Yeah.
[00:13:50] Speaker C: Oh, I know.
The most surprising one was there was this girl who was probably 19, and she looked amazing.
Amazing. 10 out of 10. Amazing.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Speaker C: And I went up to her and she started crying, and she said, I really needed this today. She said, I've been looking at the mirror, just obsessing because I've been studying abroad in Australia and everyone is so fit there. And I've just been feeling like I'm less than. And I really needed to hear this today. And I honestly don't know.
I know. I honestly don't know why she felt less than, though. We got interrupted and I didn't get a chance to ask, but I'm hoping I'm gonna see her again because she was a 10. But it is interesting to me. I feel like sometimes the girls who have the best bodies are the most insecure about their body.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: I would agree with that. And I think that just based on our own experience and kind of what we've been uncovering, the beginning part of this conversation, it sounds like she's still just in that zone where the wisdom that comes with getting older hasn't quite settled in, and that appreciation for the strength of our bodies and what they can do and what they can endure hasn't maybe caught up with her and it's instead just chasing this different type of ideal.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:27] Speaker A: So if I were to walk up to you at the gym, let's pretend we don't know each other, and I were to give you that compliment, how would you respond? What would your answer be?
[00:15:37] Speaker C: My answer would be thanks. I do work really hard at this and actually I'm going to tell you what, what came into my head and then I'm going to revise it. So my gut reaction is thank you. I do look, work really hard at this and I appreciate you noticing and saying something.
And I know I have imperfections, but it feels nice to be appreciated.
And I'm going to change that by dropping the I know I have imperfections. Good.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: That was going to be my push to you,
[00:16:15] Speaker C: in part for me and in part for other people, because I frequently have this experience where I am in awe of someone and I compliment them and then they reply by telling me why they aren't good enough. And then that just makes me feel like, wow, if they're not good enough, I'm really not good enough.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And it, you know, I think it dances back to this thing that we do where many of us have a very hard time accepting a compliment and we feel this need to either reciprocate it, whether it's authentic or not, and also to qualify it, quantify it in some way like, oh, thanks, but really my arms are this. Or, you know, I. It could be better. Or just trying to like, not just fully receive.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: Right, yeah, that.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: It makes me think a little bit about the last conversation we had here on Unperfectly Honest about just not.
Not being good enough. And I'm just curious, like, do you remember the first time you felt not good enough physically?
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know if it was the first time, but. But it was.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: But what stands out?
[00:17:33] Speaker C: What stands out?
I was 14 and I was in a bikini and this girl next to me had these chiseled abs and really defined muscles and I just didn't have that.
And I've always had just a little bit of extra on my middle.
I recently found out from my very detailed genetic test that I am genetically prone to that. So I'm not sure that I'm ever going to be able to get rid of it. But anyway, I just remember being really, really self conscious about my middle standing next to her.
How about you?
[00:18:15] Speaker A: You know, it was probably right around the same age, like 13, 14 years old.
I'd moved to a new town for high school and it was just, it was bigger.
I didn't know a whole lot of people. We needed to, you know, dress up for a homecoming dance. And I just remember feeling like such an ugly duckling and just physically looking at myself like, why does it feel like I haven't caught up or just not really? I was very, very athletic, very sporty and just always had more of a kind of muscular build and was frustrated, frustrated in that, that I had, you know, these great quads but no boobs. And I think that was really the first time where I started to notice it. Which you know, was also happening in the 90s, which was the rise of the supermodel. And I think about the glossy covers on Seventeen magazine and Cosmo and everything else and it was just these super airbrushed uniform ideals of beauty and it felt I wanted to attain it so bad and I just, I just couldn't. It felt so out of reach for me. And this was also during this time of the 90s minimalism. Dressing that was so cool and so chic but just didn't work for my body type. It really required a bit more of that rail thin build which just never has been and never will be me.
So yeah, I think that was really, that was really the first time. The 90s into the early 2000s was really when I was the most keenly aware.
[00:20:04] Speaker C: How has your definition of healthy shifted and is that shift actually healthier?
[00:20:14] Speaker A: You know, I would say that it's healthier because it's informed.
It's rooted really more in the knowledge of what different types of diet and eating and movement.
I get my blood tested fairly regularly to take inventory of my hormones and things. And it's really understanding the, my whole body and looking at it from that 360 standpoint and not just, oh, we're a bit flabby around the midsection. So letting that spiral out without really taking a hard look at some of the other choices and things I might be making. So I mean, even little things like understanding the relationship that cortisol, high stress, the quality of my sleep all have ultimately on my weight. And I think again, it comes down to just the effort I've put into being informed, but also the way that I've just really held my body for 43 years now and have had an opportunity to get curious and look for those, those patterns and just kind of see sort of what's the, what's the cause and effect there. Whereas a younger version of me wasn't Wasn't able to do that. It was just, this is bad, this is ugly, we shouldn't have fat here or acne there. And it would immediately go into a negative space and a comparative place as opposed to really just taking that, that ownership over, you know, my own actions and looking at me as an individual.
[00:21:49] Speaker C: So I have always seen athletic bodies as healthy bodies and I still feel like I want to look strong and I don't want to look emaciated.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: However, I'm not sure how healthy my approach to body is, in all honesty. So I had one of those scans that we talked about on a previous episode, the full body MRIs recently and they tell you the, your body composition at all different parts of your body. And it came back that I have less muscle than I thought and actually that I might have too little body fat.
And before I got that scan, I was really feeling like I was strong and I loved the way that my body looked. And my doctor said, how do you feel about hearing that? And I said, in all honesty, I'm feeling kind of defensive about it. Like I don't really want to change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: That's so interesting, especially because, like, I put myself in your shoes as you were sharing that. And if a doctor and a scan told me that I had too little body fat and that there was maybe an opportunity, particularly as a woman, to cultivate a little bit more, I, I feel like I would look at that as an invitation to give myself a bit, a bit, a bit of grace and try to loosen the reins a little bit. I'm a pretty disciplined eater, but I, I have such a sweet tooth. And that is, I think, one of the hardest things for me at times. And so if there was a chance to maybe feel less guilt around that, it would be a welcome addition to my world.
[00:23:48] Speaker C: Well, to each their own, I guess. Yeah, I did not, I didn't have that reaction and it sparked a rabbit hole of curiosity for me. And I got into this hypothetical conversation with myself of, you know, what changes would I be willing to make in the name of health?
I've had digestive health issues for a long time and if somebody told me that I could eradicate those, but I'd have to gain 10 pounds, I honestly don't know if I could do it.
And that's probably not healthy.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: I mean, I would agree with that. There's some room for improvement within that, that mindset.
[00:24:32] Speaker C: But also I feel that wanting a good looking body is a very positive motivator for me. I don't Know that I would get up and get out of bed like I do in the morning to get my workout in. And I don't know that I would eat as healthy as I do.
It's.
I didn't have that carrot.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would agree with that too.
[00:25:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Well, but it's like. And it's. I think it's looking at both sides of that coin though. And not to belabor the point, but it's the. Not only looking good, but just the feeling good, like having that energy and unlocking those endorphins that allow you to move through, to move through your days with just maybe a bit more joy, a bit more happiness intact.
[00:25:28] Speaker C: So if you were your own mentor and you were going to give yourself a piece of advice on this topic, what would you say?
[00:25:36] Speaker A: Focus on you.
Which is so hard. I say that being like, damn. And that's probably one of the most difficult things that you can do when it comes to body image. Because we don't exist in isolation. I mean we are encountering through media and just being out in the world. And social beings what others look like every single day. From the choices they make with what to wear to how they want to style their hair and, or if they're wearing makeup to what their bodies are shaped like, it is unavoidable.
But I think the truly the biggest gift we can give ourselves is to focus on ourselves. We are all so individual, so unique. And if you can just get curious about your, yourself, your wants, your desires, your needs, the patterns that happen when you move in a certain way or eat a certain thing, I think that's where the most balanced relationship with your, with your body can really live.
Yeah. What about you?
[00:26:49] Speaker C: Food is not a reward.
Food is fuel. That would be my advice.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:26:56] Speaker C: I really like to eat dinner. Yeah. And I like to feel like I have nothing else to do for the rest of the day at dinner time.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:11] Speaker C: So that I can fully relax and wind down.
And I like to feel hungry.
And I often over index on that. I wait too long, I get too hungry.
And that isn't actually good for getting the body I want. Even, you know, when you don't fuel your muscles after strength training, for instance, it's not ideal.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: It can be detrimental to your metabolism overall too.
[00:27:45] Speaker C: Right. Right.
Yeah. And there was a time in my life when I would do a long distance half Iron man just so I could have a huge Dairy Queen Heath Blizzard and Taco Bell on the way home. So I've come a long way from that.
Yeah. Luckily, that was a short period of time in my life, but old habits do die hard. It's funny how that it's true.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: I wonder if there's an opportunity for there to be something in the middle where food's not a reward, but it's also more than fuel. And can food represent connection for you and I? And I ask this as someone who's so passionate about the power of food as this connective thread in our lives, because I look, I. I love to lean into it and use it as a way to connect with a culture or a memory or a story or other people just sitting down and sharing a meal or even a cup of coffee and maybe splitting a cookie, where it's not about the reward or a deprivation or a needing to do something to earn that, but it's really, I think, softer way of saying, hey, food can also connect.
[00:29:13] Speaker C: Well, I don't think we could have planned a better tee up for you to tell the world about Dish and Tell. Do you want to talk about that?
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Oh, that's so nice. Thank you. I would love to talk about Dish and Tell.
So just in. In working with Yvonne, and perfectly honest, it just got my creative wheels turning, and I just find you and what you're creating so inspiring. Elizabeth And I realized that as I was taking inventory of, you know, the things that are really important to me, it has always been food. And I'm not someone who's looking to go to culinary school and open a restaurant or become a caterer or anything like that, but I am just endlessly curious about, inspired by food's ability to connect us, to tell our stories, to share our memories, to acknowledge our traditions and our holidays and just mark moments of joy and grief and really everything in between. And so I have a podcast, Dish and Tell, where I'm sitting down with. With different individuals, and I'm asking them, well, what's the story that has the most meaning to you, the most memory for you?
And don't tell me the story yet, just tell me the dish. And then I go off and I tinker in my kitch, and I figure out how to make it to the best of my ability. And then I invite the person over for essentially, a dinner party created for them. And we start by, you know, I ask them, why is this dish so meaningful? What's the story that's attached to it? And then, much like a dinner party, it's really fun to see where the conversation goes and how that sort of sparks some different.
Just areas of inquiry and exploration.
So I hope that you will be a future guest, which would be so much fun on. And I also have a sub stack where I'm just sharing food essays and recipes and. And things as well. So just thank you. Thank you for the question, the tee up, and also just for the way that you've been so supportive of me in building this and creating it.
[00:31:22] Speaker C: Love it. Love it.
Well, Kayla, before we sign off, is there any final words of wisdom that you want to share with our audience?
[00:31:35] Speaker A: I think be kind.
I just. Be kind to yourself. And I'm saying that as much to everyone listening as I am to myself, I think that there are moments where I'm not very kind to my body and I am a little bit negative. And I really try to, you know, let those moments be fleeting. Not to push them down and pretend they don't exist, but let them be fleeting and move on. Because I think that the world just ultimately needs more kindness with each other and with ourselves.
[00:32:11] Speaker C: Mine is, instead of trying to eradicate your natural tendencies, there might be a way to just lean into them.
So I care about the way that my body looks, and that has been woven into me through generations of women in my family and society and all of those things. And I spent a big chunk of my life just trying to eradicate that whole desire to have a body that looks a certain way. And I've since decided that that is just a mountain that's too high to climb and that I don't actually want to climb that mountain. And so I think finding a way to leverage the fact that I care about my body and realizing that that can be motivation for me to get up in the morning to do things that are actually good for my body.
As long as I keep myself in check, can work. And. And I'm actually going to add one more thought, which is I'm in a relationship right now with somebody who is willing to say things that other people don't say and to call me out on things.
And I really appreciate that. I think having an honest person for accountability is really important on both sides of the the pendulum.
He was at dinner with me the other night and said, I can't even talk to you right now. You're so hungry that you can't pay attention to me. He said, I'm. I'm not going to go to dinner with you again if you like this.
That's totally fair. You are right. And thank you for saying that.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that snapshot into your relationship. And it just made me think of One more question I have on the topic of body image overall. Where do you think that you can fully experience intimacy with a romantic partner if you're in conflict with your body?
[00:34:23] Speaker C: I think it's much harder.
I have learned that people can sense my anxiety and discomfort and that that can be a real turn off.
And when I'm not feeling confident in my body enough to really give my full self to someone, it's not as good of an experience. I don't feel like they're willing to give their whole self and they don't have a level of attraction to me that they do when I'm really feeling confident in my body.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: I, I agree with that. I mean, I don't think it's like impossible per se, but, but really challenging, really difficult when that energetic exchange isn't so free flowing. And there is that sense that you're withholding in some capacity. And I mean that I think directly translates to pleasure too. I mean, how can you really surrender to the pleasure within that moment if your head in is just somewhere else, your thoughts are somewhere else, and you're too worried about how your body looks at a certain angle or position or whatever it is.
[00:35:38] Speaker C: I love that thought, Kayla and I think this is a good time to close out.
Kayla, thanks for being here as always.
[00:35:48] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me, Elizabeth. Can't wait to have another conversation just like this out on the trail with you so soon.
[00:35:56] Speaker C: Yeah, let's hope this sense makes mud dries out.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: I know.
[00:36:00] Speaker C: Fingers crossed.
All right, until next time. Bye.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Bye.
