When “Good” Is – and Isn’t – “Good Enough”

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello, Kayla here and welcome back to Imperfectly Honest. Today's conversation is for anyone who's ever looked at their life, their work, their body or relationship and thought, this is good, but is it enough? In this episode, Elizabeth and I explore that question which we discovered lives in that tension between growth and acceptance and ambition and alignment. We talk about perfectionism, potential, and the stories we tell ourselves about success. Especially, as Elizabeth points out, when improvement doesn't actually change the outcome. From career paths and leadership to body image, relationships and self compassion, this conversation asks a simple but potentially uncomfortable question. Who are we trying to be better for and at what cost? This isn't about settling and it's definitely not about striving. It's about knowing when to push, when to pause, and when good enough might actually be the most honest and best place to land. So without further ado on to the episode, [00:01:13] Speaker B: this isn't perfectly honest. I'm Elizabeth, and after about four decades, I'm shifting from the person I always thought I should be to. To the person I really want to be. In part because I've learned to be honest both with myself and just about everybody I encounter. It's not always perfect. Sometimes it's a rocky road. But I'm learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might learn something too. Hey, all. Today my friend and colleague Kayla Gorski is back for another episode. And our topic today is when better isn't good enough. I have seen both sides of this statement. One side is that I've often pushed myself to be perfect and I was already good enough and perfect is sometimes the enemy of good. And then on the other side, I have pushed myself really hard to be better in areas that I'm just honestly not that good at and have figured out that spending a lot of time to become average in certain areas is not the best use of my time, that I am better off spending time being extraordinary or even more extraordinary. And Kayla agreed to join us today. And Kayla, I'm curious what this step statement means for you. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you, Elizabeth. And it's so good to be back with you and the imperfectly honest community here. This statement, you know, it brings up. It brings up so much for me because it's this recognition that I'm looking at sort of outside of myself, I think for more of these validating statements and philosophies that are kind of defining like, what does make it good enough? What does make it perfect? Is the goalpost still moving? And so since we first kind of threw this topic out there and we're talking about it, just musing a little bit. It really, I guess brought up for me a question that I have for you. How do you personally define when better isn't enough? Is it always linked to external validation or is it something that's more inside? [00:03:52] Speaker B: Great question. I think it depends for me. So the main area in which it feels internal is around physical health and fitness. I am not a natural athlete. I came in dead last in every single event and field day first through sixth grade. And I'm just not fast. And I love athletics, I love running and biking and all these things and I am just not fast. And so it is literally impossible for me to be competitive with other people because I, I'm just going to get so defeated. So I have to be competitive with myself in that case and just look at my own improvement. And I think the difference there is I do that because I enjoy it and because I get personal benefits regardless of whether I'm better than other people. But you know, on the flip side, I spent most of my childhood trying to be better at science and math because I was told that that was what I hired, unquote should do to be successful. And I worked so hard and had mentors and tutors and my dad spent hours and hours helping me and I did make it to AP classes and things like that, but I was the slowest person in the class. And so in that case it did matter. I was fighting against an objective standard to try to get into college and try to get a job and all those things. So I think it really depends on the situation. How about you? [00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I would agree with that in you sharing that it just reminded me of another reason why I just so enjoy our conversations and spending time with you because you are so expansive for me where you help me make the competition be more with myself and less about that outside. I grew up kind of the opposite like, like super athletic, a very sporty, competitive kid where it was so performative based, there was a clear winning and losing outcome and you strove to win and that was it. And it translated into the classroom too, where you aimed for an A and anything less, well then there was of course room to grow and it was just so clear. And I think as I've grown and just taken some of this beyond and into just more personal relationships, I start to realize that there aren't always those metrics. There isn't always the, the, the grading schedule, if you will. And so it's just been an interesting sort of way to take it in and sort of recalibrate. I think how I'm measuring, you know, when, when is it better, when is it good and how am I being? I think authentic. [00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. And one of the things that really annoys me is that I feel like our society has kind of gone in the direction of everyone's a winner and that everyone should receive a participation award. [00:07:26] Speaker A: And that actually drives me nuts. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Does it? I was curious what your thoughts were because I find you to be very kind and inclusive and so I didn't think you were going to feel that way. Why do you feel that way? [00:07:40] Speaker A: I feel that way because I gosh, let me try to find the words for it. I think it's. It just great. Everybody shows up and you get that feeling of being included in, in being on that field and participating in that, that team or that group or that gathering or what have you. But there are still, I guess maybe it's just how I'm conditioned and how I grew up, but there are still, especially in like a game and a sports environment in my mind, clear winners and losers. And I think that when we reward you for just showing up, it's not, it's not necessarily motivating and encouraging you to really focus and, and develop the skill and, and try and also maybe help you identify where your strengths, your weaknesses, your passions, all of these things lie. I think that when there is something to be said for doing something because it's just great fun and we enjoy it. But I think there are other times where if you're not performing at a certain level, maybe consistently, you start to question, hey, am I still enjoying this? Am I still having fun? Or maybe could my talents emerge in a brighter way somewhere else? [00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah, and I really saw this as a venture capitalist and I've kind of changed my thinking on this because when I started investing, I had a little bit of bushy tailed optimism. It's fun to invest in the underdogs and to believe in people and all those things. And in some cases that is important. But I invested in people's potential rather than where they were in the moment. And I want to believe that we live in a world where everyone can have an equal playing field. But unfortunately that's just not how our world is wired. And so there is a reason why Harvard graduates and kids who have parents who will invest in them end up getting more venture capital dollars. I think in some cases it's bias, but in some cases it's just the unfair fact that those kids have an edge. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. So that actually made me think of something. Have you ever stayed in a role or a relationship or an investment opportunity, project identity? Because it was better than before and you saw, you know, maybe some slight growth or things that were ticking in the right direction, but not because it was necessarily right. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Definitely. I've done this most with people who have worked for me where I realized that they had a lot of improvement that needed to happen in order for them to get to the next promotion. And I saw their potential to do that. And so then I waited longer than I should have to say. Either you're great in your role and you're not ready for the next role. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Gosh, I feel guilty of that one too, where, you know, worked with extraordinary human beings. But did they necessarily have the skills that were required for that role? And were they growing and sort of stepping into that next role at the pace that I needed them to? No, no, in some instances. But that just desire to want to kind of applaud the growth in that moment, definitely, I think took me out of doing what was ultimately right for the greater team or, or client or situation that it was. And I think on a personal level, absolutely done that in dating relationships. It was not. It wasn't quite right, but it was better than it was before. So let's just see what can happen here. [00:12:09] Speaker B: Right. And I also just have a tendency to want to invest in the underdogs and relationships too. And I remember saying to someone one time I was talking about some guy that I was dating and I was saying, you know, he has so much potential and he has such a good heart and he's had a lot of childhood trauma. So it totally makes sense as to why he's acting like he's acting. And she looked me straight in the eye and she said, but how do you feel when he acts like he acts? And I said, I kind of feel like he's hitting me with a two by four. It doesn't feel great. Yeah, I get that. And he might get over that childhood trauma. And it's not his fault that he had that childhood trauma. And some people go their entire lifetime and they're unable to get through that because he went through some really terrible things. Do you want to wait for that? And I feel like a terrible person saying, no, I don't. You know, it wasn't their fault that they experienced these things, but [00:13:26] Speaker A: it does [00:13:26] Speaker B: put them at a disadvantage. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And both can be true. It's not their fault. And they're not right for. For you. And that's a tough. That's a tough conclusion to reach sometimes, especially when you have the propensity for wanting to champion the underdog, as you say, you would just want to believe in everyone's potential and the best in. The best in people. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Right. And I have had to just be self aware about my own tendency to want to really celebrate my progress without seeing it objectively in the scale of objective measurement. Like one example, I've talked about this on this podcast before, but I developed a pretty unhealthy fear of germs after the pandemic, and I've made huge strides in that. And I get frustrated sometimes when other people don't recognize those huge strides. And a particularly honest friend of mine said, well, they're not recognizing it because you're now just normal. You're. [00:14:37] Speaker A: You're not. You're. [00:14:39] Speaker B: You're kind of like you're ground zero. [00:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:42] Speaker B: You've made it to ground zero. [00:14:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:45] Speaker B: So typically, people don't give you a ribbon for being average. [00:14:53] Speaker A: So how do you respond to that, though? Are you able to hear that and kind of see some truth in that person's perspective and words, or do you just kind of brush it off? Like, you know what, there's something that I need to celebrate for me here. And. And it's okay that that celebration might not be shared? [00:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm not sure. It might be a both. And here I want the people closest to me to see the progress that I've made and celebrate it. And I feel I need to celebrate myself regardless of who celebrates me. And also, I have people in my life who are the eternal critics, who are the really tough coaches who just never say good job unless it's something absolutely extraordinary. And I've seen how that can be destructive. But I'm also really grateful that those people are in my life because they make me extraordinary. [00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:58] Speaker B: And I'm not really sure if this is analogous or not, but the thought that popped up in my head when you were asking me about this is that I was recently hurt because someone close to me wasn't worried about me because I had gone through some pretty significant challenges and they just weren't worried about me. And he finally said to me, I'm not worried about you because I believe in you. I just know that you're going to get it together. And the experience that I had with not getting recognition for really improving on my fear of germs was kind of a little bit in the same. [00:16:47] Speaker A: Yep. [00:16:48] Speaker B: In the same direction. Like he just, he wasn't going to congratulate me for getting to ground zero because I just. He didn't say this, but I just kind of know in my heart that this maybe was what he was thinking, is that he knows that I'm capable of being extraordinary and he does recognize when I am extraordinary. So he's not going to recognize me when I'm average. And maybe that's actually a compliment in disguise. [00:17:18] Speaker A: You know, that's an interesting way of looking at it. I kind of like that. And I think it made me sort of reflect on how people give and receive love too. And maybe this is not a person who is really leaning into words of affirmation and it just exists in a more subtle space. Yet you are someone perhaps who you receive that sort of love, that reassurance, that connection through those words. And so maybe there was just some of that at play as well that just created that dynamic. [00:17:59] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, my dad is just not a lovey dovey guy. [00:18:03] Speaker A: He. [00:18:06] Speaker B: I remember having these friends whose dads would, you know, always be hugging them and always be telling them how great they are and they'd get them like roses for Valentine's Day and just, just very lovey dovey dads. And that was just not my dad. But I never doubted for a nanosecond that he loved me and that when rubber hits the road, he would be there for me. And that has definitely been true. And I think sometimes having people like that in your life makes you figure out how to give yourself your own affirmation and also how to strive to be better. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I can see that. I think too, you know, I, I consider you to be a very high achieving person and I, I feel like you'd say the same about yourself. And so do you think that high achieving people kind of struggle with this idea of when better still isn't good enough? Maybe more than others? [00:19:18] Speaker B: I really don't know. That's a great question. I know that I think about it all the time. And actually, as we're talking through this one thing about my Enneagram type, I'm an Enneagram one. The reformer is. I just can't help but see how things can be better. And it's not just in the things around me, but it's also in myself. And so that is my blessing and my curse. Sometimes your taxi driver doesn't really need to hear five ways that they could be a better taxi driver. I don't really care. And I feel like I'm Doing a service by telling them the things that I see about how they could be so much better. And they do seem sort of blindsided by it. I don't think people think about it at the same rate that I do, actually. I'm sure they don't think about it at the same rate that I do, but I don't know if that's true across the board for high achieving people. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's fair. That's fair. I know. I'm like, sorry, I'm trying. I'm like, wow, how do I. How do I take that? We're gonna have to edit out this [00:20:37] Speaker B: little pause or maybe leave it because it's kind of a funny imperfection. But what have you learned about striving to be better without crossing that line of being destructive? [00:20:55] Speaker A: Striving to be better without crossing the line to be destructive? You know, I think, I think it's just about balance and just trying to maintain that perspective too, of recognizing sort of where you can take things. Because there are, I think, different people sort of living like different degrees of success all around us. Right. And expanding that subconscious. So we're seeing to believe the potential of just humanity in different endeavors, whether that's in. In business and in love, in sport and whatever it is. Right. So knowing sort of what is out there, but also just like really tuning into myself, really feeling when something feels good. I really have been trying to. And this kind of goes back to something else I believe we've talked about on the podcast is like, how do I connect more with that, that animal self, that deep intuition and knowing that something might not look like someone else's, but in this moment, with the skills and the tools and the knowledge and the things that I have, it's the best expression of it for me. And I like having that North Star and knowing what else is possible, But I don't know, I think it's kind of that balance of the recognition of what's possible with also the giving myself the permission to celebrate when things start to click and feel good. And I'm tracking that, that progress. Yeah. [00:22:32] Speaker B: And one thing that I've been thinking about is I've been trying to ask myself the question, is this going to change the outcome? I had this 25 email, email exchange on this side project I was working on recently in which people kept giving these suggestions on how the communication we had put together could be better. And they were all valid suggestions. And there was not a single suggestion that in my opinion, would have changed the outcome of the communication. That we were trying to send. It is not always worth my time to make things better. Nine times out of ten, my desire to change something, to make it better will not actually change the outcome. And I am trying really hard not to lose sight of that. [00:23:29] Speaker A: I think that's a really good point. Yeah, that's a good. It's a great question to ask. Sort of how far. How far and when to press and when to let it sort of exist. Now, when you do sort of move towards something continuing to be better, does the goal post stay in the same place or do you find that it sort of bumps out to the point where maybe you're setting yourself up to never quite reach it? [00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. [00:24:04] Speaker A: I was kind of musing with that as well. And I think that I change the goalpost on myself in different things. And where I find I'm doing that most is probably with body image stuff, to be honest. [00:24:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that? [00:24:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm just, you know, I'm really. I'm really committed to being, you know, fit and feeling strong and. And I feel like there is just. There's just a little bit of weight that I want to. That I want to shed to really achieve that. And as I, you know, start to explore that in a more mindful way with just, you know, with some really conscious eating and different types of movement and things like that, it's. You get that little, I think, surge of excitement and dopamine hit in seeing. In seeing, like, my body change or the scale maybe move in a quote, unquote positive direction. And then it's like, let's keep. Let's keep setting that, like, goal weight or that goal size or that thing a little bit further out. And it's something that I've just become more acutely aware of in probably the past month that I'm also like, okay, this is. It's not. It's not necessarily bad. I don't think that it's dipping into an unhealthy space where it's inviting, you know, negative and destructive behaviors. But it is something that's like, how do I. How do I balance this more? How can I celebrate. How can I celebrate this win? But also, when. When do I just let good enough be good enough? [00:25:56] Speaker B: Interesting conversation about this with a male friend who is comfortable being honest. And he was talking about how it is challenging for him to know that the way a woman's body looks matters to him. And he wants to, you know, support his partners in being healthy, but also kind of wants to honor his natural desire. And I said to him, so, you know, one of the things that I struggle with as a woman is that I know what I need to do to be my perfect weight and to be my absolutely perfect body. And at 44 years old, that pretty much means never eating out. It means working out every day and not just doing 20 minutes of cardio, but a perfectly balanced workout with cardio and strength and stretching and all those things. And I know what I need to do to have a perfect body, but that often really inhibits my ability to be in a intimate, loving relationship as well. You know, a big part of being in a relationship is going out to dinner together and enjoying that time. And I said, so if you had to choose between having someone with the perfect body or having a woman who had, you know, five pounds of extra weight and imperfect abs and was focused on fitness, but also enjoyed going out to dinner and all those things, what would you choose? And he said, well, hands down the ladder, that's, that's like a no brainer. And he's one of the most discerning men I know around women's physical appearance. And I just thought that was really interesting that I think when you pushed people to understand that there is a trade off always and to push yourself to really think about that trade off is important. [00:28:13] Speaker A: I, I appreciate that. And I think, wow, this took a turn I wasn't, I wasn't expecting us to take. So I love conversations with you so much, Elizabeth, but I think, you know, what keeps coming up for me is the through line for all of this is this idea to invite greater self compassion, whether it's in regards to, you know, body image and some of, some of this type of conversation that we've landed on, or going back to just having self compassion for where you're at in your personal sort of health journey overall or the other pursuits that you are tracking down. How can you just cultivate greater self compassion in that process and focus more on the journey versus the goal itself? [00:29:09] Speaker B: Yeah, and I fully embrace and agree with that. And I just want to give the other side of that story, which is we do not live in a world in which everyone is equal simply because they participate. I think it's important to keep objectivity in check when you're thinking about whether you're good enough. I do believe that every person on this planet has at least one quality that makes them extraordinary in a certain way. If you Spend your whole life trying to be extraordinary in every way, it's just a recipe for disaster. But if you allow yourself to accept mediocrity and being average and every part of you, that's also a recipe for disaster. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. How do you combat that? [00:30:10] Speaker B: I don't know that there's ever a perfect balance there. I think you just have to figure out what it is for you. [00:30:16] Speaker A: And I think too, it's like, I would just be curious to understand, I think, the motivations behind some things. I mean, is someone doing. Pushing themselves and seeking perfection out of this need for validation, out of fear? Do they have unrealistic expectations as a whole? Is it this, like, can't quit sort of ethos that maybe they've adopted that's really beneficial and positive? Fire, like, I feel like whatever that root is would offer some interesting insight to. To the person in the moment at hand as well. [00:30:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think asking yourself, who am I doing this for? What is the story that I've bought into for this? Am I doing it because I think I should, because society tells me to or somebody else? And then going back to the outcome conversation that we had before, really thinking about what is the outcome that I'm trying to achieve and do I actually need to be better to achieve that outcome? And is that the outcome I really want? [00:31:31] Speaker A: And is that an outcome that's realistic? Right. [00:31:35] Speaker B: The last thing I'll share before we wrap up is that I really saw as an investor and entrepreneurs, that our American culture tells people that everyone should be an entrepreneur and that everyone can be an entrepreneur, and that the best path to the American dream is to make your own way. And that is simply not true. Not everyone has the personality, has the resources, has the vision, the vision, the grit. And being an entrepreneur is not always the most efficient way to success. In fact, it's typically the least efficient way to success. So I just. I guess I'll close out by saying the best quote that I heard this year was, question nothing. You're a fool. Question everything. You're alone. And I think that that applies in so many ways to just continue to ask good questions about whether you're good enough and whether you're asking the right question. [00:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah, the right question. I think that's it. And knowing when to maybe just stop asking the questions and just live, just connect, just be in that moment, moving forward with whatever it is at hand. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. Which actually, I should always avoid saying my last thought is because I almost always have one more thought which is the second best quote that I heard this year was the body is smarter than the mind. If you allow yourself to just feel whether you think you're good enough and if it's good enough for you or if you need to keep pushing, your intuition is almost always right. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Yep. Absolutely. What a beautiful thought to close on. [00:33:48] Speaker B: All right, Kayla. Well, amazing conversation as always. Thank you so much for your time and listeners. Until next time. [00:33:59] Speaker A: Thanks, Elizabeth. Take care. Bye.