Finding Love After Divorce: Letting Go of the Checklist

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Kayla here. And welcome back to imperfectly honest. What if finding the right relationship isn't about finding someone who checks every box, but is really more about being open enough to recognize the right person when they show up? In this episode, Elizabeth sits down with her friend Al Musser for a candid conversation about finding love after divorce, dating later in life, and what it really takes to build a healthy relationship. What I love about this conversation is that neither of them approaches love as something you can perfectly plan or engineer. Instead, they talk about being open to possibility, paying attention to how a relationship actually feels, and letting go of some of the expectations we carry about who our partner is supposed to be. They also explore some pretty powerful questions, such as how do you know when a relationship feels right? What happens when the person who turns out to be a great match doesn't look anything like the person you imagined? And can a relationship actually make you a better version of yourself? So whether you're dating after divorce, navigating a new relationship, or simply wondering what makes lasting love work, I suspect you'll find a lot to think about here. So let's get to their conversation. [00:01:24] Speaker B: This isn't imperfectly honest. I'm Elizabeth, and after about four decades, I'm shifting from the person I always thought I should be to the person I really want to be, in part because I've learned to be honest both with myself and just about everybody I encounter. It's not always perfect. Sometimes it's a rocky road. But I'm learning a lot by being imperfectly honest and thought you might learn something, too. Hey, listeners. I am excited for our conversation today. I invited my friend Al Musser to join us. Thank you so much for being here, Elizabeth. [00:02:03] Speaker C: I am excited to join you today. [00:02:05] Speaker B: Well, I'm excited to have you. I invited Al to join us because I shared some thoughts on my hopes of the kinds of qualities that I want to find in a partner. And he wrote back this lovely note saying that he resonated with some of the thoughts that I shared and to share with me that he met someone. And he met someone after he stopped looking. There's so much packed into that statement that I want to unpack today. But to give us a little bit of context, Al, can you just briefly introduce yourself? Sure. [00:02:51] Speaker C: This is Al Musser. I live in Gypsum, Colorado, in the Vail Valley. I've lived here for a decade, since 2016. I came out here in retirement because I wanted to do the things that are special here in the valley. I wanted to ski and hike and Bike and all of that because I had first skied in Vail in 1968. So this is a place that's very close to my heart. After I moved here, we built a house, and five years later, my marriage of 34 years came to an end. So a new beginning had to be created from that point forward. And it's been quite a journey. It had moved to the point, as Elizabeth mentioned, that I had decided to step away from dating for a variety of reasons. I assume some of those we'll talk about. Since then, I met the, the woman of my dreams, and the sun's out, the winds in my back, and, you know, it all feels great, but it hasn't always. [00:03:55] Speaker B: How much time did you take after your divorce before you started dating? [00:04:01] Speaker C: That is a great question, and the answer is about nine months. And it was purely an accident. I met this woman at a, a concert and was kind of fell together. And the interesting thing about that story and the relationship last about nine months. But the interesting thing is that I told my counselor at the time, he says, you know, I'm dating this woman. He says, oh, that's a bad idea. That's a bad idea. You need to wait at least two years to do that. And I said, you know, I, I know better than you do, Chris. Well, clearly I was a long way from ready at that time, a long way from ready at nine months. And ultimately the relationship didn't go anywhere. But thank goodness the woman I I dated ended up marrying the man of her dreams. So that story ended up really well. [00:04:54] Speaker B: Well, I wouldn't say that was by accident then. It seems like that was meant to be. Maybe you guys both had something to learn from each other. [00:05:02] Speaker C: You know, I would agree with that. I would totally agree with that. You know, I'm not a great believer in coincidences. Things happen for a reason. And, you know, I met her for a reason and, and she helped me move forward. Unfortunately, I wasn't ready, you know, for the longer term relationship then, but she definitely helped me move forward. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I can relate to that. I was in a relationship with my ex husband for 21 years and I don't regret that relationship at all. I learned a lot from him and I like to think that he learned a lot from me. And I felt like we were right for each other for the first chapter of life. And I've definitely had some bad dates and I've had some less than ideal relationships, but I actually don't regret a single one of them because I feel like I learned Something from each along the way. Do you feel similarly or do you feel different? [00:06:06] Speaker C: No, I absolutely feel much the same. As you just said, each relationship. And some were really good, and some were never good from the beginning. Each one peeled a little bit more of the onion for me about what was it that I really wanted in a relationship with a woman, and what were the things that would really matter in that relationship? So, yes, I believe you have to go through all the steps in order to reach the place where you're open enough to actually meet the person that you want to be with. You know, And I say that because I think if I had met the woman I'm going to marry now six months beforehand, I wouldn't have been ready. I don't think I had finished going through the steps, and I needed to go through that. [00:07:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I've had a somewhat similar experience, and I was thinking about that this morning because I definitely met some people that I am so glad that they've come into my life. And if I would have met them really right after my divorce, I wouldn't have even seen that they could have a place in my life, for instance, because I just needed to do some work on myself. [00:07:33] Speaker C: So I'm going to turn around and ask you a question, Elizabeth. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:37] Speaker C: Do you think that that part of working on yourself was going through relationships that weren't necessarily a good fit, that you had to kind of figure out where it was? And I asked that because I think that's part of what happened to me. You know, I had to work on myself, but I had to find out why this didn't fit. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good question. So I want to say yes to that. But I had this really interesting conversation, well, a series of interesting conversations with someone who is recently divorced, and he met someone that he's quite into and she's quite into him. And we had these questions around. Is it possible that you don't need to go through that process? Because everyone's telling him when you're just divorced, you need to play the field and have other experiences and rediscover who you are as a person. And I definitely see that side of the story, and that was what I needed to do. And I think that there's other ways that you can get that information. Some people that I know well, interestingly, I'm 45, and there are a lot of people that I know who are my age who are getting divorced right now. [00:09:05] Speaker C: It's pretty alarming. It's kind of sad to See, isn't it? [00:09:08] Speaker B: But it is. [00:09:09] Speaker C: I mean, you're at that time. [00:09:11] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know if it's sad to see the proof will be in the pudding because there's a lot of theories that the partner that you have in your 20s isn't necessarily the right partner in the next stage of life. And you know, throughout history, people didn't live past 45 and marriage was something that was needed for security and all these things. And you know, I actually had a conversation with somebody about this yesterday. I really don't technically need a single thing from a partner and they don't need a single thing from me. At least most of the people that I will likely date. And so the decision process is totally different. But there are definitely some people who I know well who started doing that work long before they left their marriage. And one in particular stayed longer than he would have liked to because they had children and he wanted to be there when his kids were at a crucial age and to really try to make it work. But he started doing that work years before he actually got divorced, which I did not go through that process years before I got divorced. [00:10:31] Speaker C: You know, if you're talking about determining what it is you want, I didn't do that before I got divorced. I, I didn't do that. The marriage was slowly sinking and I did everything I could. You know, I did what I thought I could, but it, it sunk anyway. But if we could go back to the question of finding a strong relationship really quickly. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:55] Speaker C: That your friend. Friend said. I'm just going to share a metaphor for you that. Because this is how I see divorce. I think divorce is like crossing a river. You get separated, you're standing on the side of the river, the water's flowing by, you know, you can't tell how deep it is or anything. And you think, you know, I'm going to be okay, I can walk across that river and I can get to the other side. And then you step in, the water gets a little deeper, you take the next step, it gets a little deeper, it keeps getting deeper. You keep going further and further into the water. And this I see as the self exploration process until finally the waters at your neck and it's moving faster now. You take the next step and you're under the water, you're actually underwater. This, this is, you have to hit the bottom first. The water's going over your head, it's rushing by. And at that point, at least for me, I thought, I'm never going to get out of this, never gonna get out of it. But then, you know, you continue to move, and ultimately you take a step and you start going up the other side, and ultimately your head comes out of the water. The water's still moving. You're a long way from being done, but the water's still moving. And as you keep going over time, and there's no fixed time that this happens in, ultimately you get to the point where the water's only at your ankles, and then finally you step on the other side, you step out on the other side. And I think it's at that point that you're actually ready to look at a serious relationship. Because I think you have to go through the middle of the river, you have to go through the water being over your head. It has to be fast and it has to be dark, because until you get there, you don't really know what you need to internalize from the message. So that's how I see it. And I think when you go too quickly, you never go through that. [00:12:52] Speaker B: I agree. I remember writing this blog post, which I'll link to in the show notes, but it was about how I was committing to being uncomfortable because part of why I stayed in my marriage was that it was comfortable, it did feel secure, I knew what to expect. And for me, because I actually have an unhealthy fear of uncertainty sometimes, or I should say had an unhealthy fear of uncertainty, I needed to learn that I could actually find greater happiness by embracing that uncertainty and by hitting rock bottom and realizing that I would still be okay. I also heard Tim Ferriss, who's the author of the Four Hour Workweek, and he has one of the most popular podcasts as well. He said that he's writing this book now called the Power of no or something similar to that, but he has optimized his entire life to be able to work as efficiently as possible. And in that process, he still didn't say no enough, even though he was working more and more efficiently. He was just saying yes to things that he didn't necessarily have a full yes to, and that would make him feel stretched. He said that he realized that he didn't have a big enough yes to convince him to say no. And he gave the example of when you have a child, it's much easier to say no to a Wednesday barbecue that you don't really have time or the desire to go to because you care so much about that child. And I feel like I had an analogous experience getting divorced because I didn't have a strong enough no to my marriage to get out of it. But then when that no became loud enough, then I did leave. And I realized what it was like after that to have a strong enough yes to something to want to make changes, something that I really, really the yes to. And I think that I had to get really uncomfortable to get to that point. And I've had the privileged to not just meet one man that made me feel this way, but three men since my divorce who made me feel as if I was willing to really take all the things that I didn't have a full yes to off my plate, to say yes to something that felt right. [00:15:52] Speaker C: Wow, that's a big deal, Elizabeth. That's really a big deal. Obviously several of those men, you know, you have moved beyond, but they, they left some bridge work for you to stand on to go forward with. So that sounds like it was a good thing. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a good thing. And I kind of still want to go back to this thing about how many people and for how long do you need to date after your divorce? And the argument that sounds more on your camp and is similar to the experience that both you and I had. I just want to underscore that by saying every time I go on a date with someone, I realized something that I had forgotten about or had undervalued or had over prioritized. That was a quality that I realized I wanted or didn't want in a long term relationship. And it's hard to think of all those things when you don't have those kinds of experiences. And I'm also in the business of meeting people. My job for most of my career has been building a network of people to support my venture capital portfolio. If I would have been more intentional about paying attention to those relationships that I was building that were platonic relationships through the lens of what I might want in a romantic partner. I actually think I could have gotten the same insight from those experiences as I have from dating. It's just about how you frame things and how curious you are and whether you can keep asking questions. [00:17:47] Speaker C: You know, I think that's a really good point. I've never thought of it in that perspective, you know, and while I'm interested in asking questions that people who are platonic friends, I've never thought of that as a research bed, you know, for, for a future relationship. But I think that's something worth considering. I think that's something worth considering. I want to share on the whole dating thing that we're talking about. I found that as we. I went through the dating, and having been in sales my whole life, I've always lived by the maxim of never say no to someone too soon, because you never know when the sale's gonna happen. You know, you don't want to disqualify someone too soon when it may turn out that they're gonna buy the product you want, you know, if you just stay with them. So I found for me that, you know, I would get into a little bit of a relationship, and I would see early that there were gaps that were going to be hard to fill. But I wouldn't say no for two reasons. Part of it is wanting to continue to see if it was going to break into the sunlight. And the second was I was a little afraid to go back to being alone again. So I went through relationships that I would end up going months further than they were actually worth because I knew early on there were. The gaps existed, you know, and ultimately they. They proved to be real gaps that, you know, I didn't want to continue to pursue. And interestingly enough, so I'm always out there, you know, working, trying to find the. The. The next relationship. Girlfriend and my hairstylist, who I've had for years and years and years, you know, I would. I would talk to her about whatever was going on this month, and she said to me, you know, you're working too hard. You're working too hard. And I kept saying, oh, no, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. I've got this all under control. But when I got to the end, the answer was I was working too hard. I was. I was no longer letting things come to me. I was actually pressing so hard that I wasn't allowing things to happen organically. I was trying to make them happen. And I think that was a big lesson. You can't make it happen. It has to happen organically. [00:20:31] Speaker B: To me, yeah, I agree with that statement. And I also think that there is a fine line between sitting and letting things come to you and also proactively putting yourself out there to see those things. [00:20:52] Speaker C: 100% agreed on that. I mean, this was not about deciding to sit at home in front of the TV and, you know, play Solar Tail till Dawn with a deck of 51, you know. [00:21:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:04] Speaker C: That's from an old. That's from an old song. It may predate you. [00:21:09] Speaker B: It does, but that's okay. So that reminds me of something that I have repeated so many times, but in this episode that I did with one of my mentors and actually two of my mentors. It's a married couple that I worked with right out of college and they have a relationship that I really admire. And Mikayla, my mentor, said that when she let go of the image of the man that she had in her head that she thought she was supposed to marry, that is when her now husband for many decades came into her life and he didn't look like the picture that she had in her head, but it just felt right. And I definitely resonate with that as well. [00:22:03] Speaker C: I, I, I think that's absolutely true because you can cut yourself off. I, I have friends, female friends, who have this entire set of qualifications. You know, it's almost a box checking thing. So while they're doing that, they could miss that guy who, who walked into Michaela's life, that guy who came there because he, there were some of those boxes he didn't, he didn't check. Now, this is very different from the things you're looking for. It's very, very different. I think when you write that, you're talking about character issues and communication issues that really, really matter. They're not really a box checking thing. So I, I want to make sure that, you know, that I say that I see two, two completely different scenarios there. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a good caveat. [00:22:57] Speaker C: Yeah. And the other thing that someone said to me is that when you're in a relationship that, you know, is not right. And I, I did this. That, you know, is not right. That you, you know, you just sense it's not going to go anywhere as long as you're in that you may miss the perfect person who walks right in front of you, she may pass right in front of you. And, and because you're in this other thing, you're never going to see her. And I think that was, that was powerful advice because there is a time to say no and there is a time to step away, you know, and, and start, start afresh. And I went too long. I went too long. So I was there, I was in those places, and that was part of why I was giving up. I said, you know, I feel like I'm cluttering my brain and cluttering my soul with, without a clear picture. Without a clear picture. So that's kind of where I had reached. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm reading this book right now that's called Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come. And the premise is this woman calls herself a shintrovert, which is a shy introvert. And she spends an entire year, she said she's not living her adventure, she's living her nightmare of being an extrovert because she wanted to learn how to just put herself out there. And this book really resonated with me because I am an introvert. People don't think that because I present very much as an extrovert and I'm not that shy. But I still have a hard time, especially when I see men who I think, oh, wow, I'm attracted to that person and there could be something there. I have a really hard time going up and talking to them. And in part because I started reading this book, I just have really made it a goal to just go out and talk to people. My mom always said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And I was at Whole Foods a while back and this drop dead gorgeous guy came in and I thought, I think he's too young for me. I'm not sure, but this is the best looking man that I've seen in Bozeman, Montana, which doesn't actually say a lot. Doesn't actually say a lot because they're sorry, Boseman, but the odds are good, but the goods are odd. There just are not that many, in my opinion, attracting. So anyway, I just walked up and introduced myself and turns out he's way too young for me. He's madly in with someone. He is not at all a fit, but he's an entrepreneur who is looking for mentor. And I really had a nice conversation with him and we've become friends. And I have three really good friends that I met on dating apps that it turned out that we weren't soulmates. And so I think again, that process of just meeting people, whether it's platonic or not, is. Is important for you to figure out what you want and don't want. [00:26:20] Speaker C: Yeah. No one can explain it to you. You have to experience it to know. And, you know, I'm proud of you for doing that because one of the things I've always a credo that I have lived by is, you know, if you go and you. You try to sell something to somebody or you go and meet someone that you're not sure of, what's the very worst thing they can say to you? No. And if they say no, you're in exactly the same place you are. If you never talk to them. Well. [00:26:51] Speaker B: And no is the second best answer because then you know that it's a no. So what feels differently about this relationship that you're in now versus the previous relationships that you feel you needed to have to find this person. [00:27:06] Speaker C: So let me just. If I could, I'm going to back up for a second and kind of walk you through how it all happened, right? So In November of 2024, I had reached that. I had reached that point where, you know, I. I felt like I was spinning my wheels. I was trying too hard. You know, nothing was happening. And it was. It was just disappointing week after week. And I had decided I was going to follow my. My hairstylist recommendation, as you know, you're trying too hard. I'm going to step out and take a break. I finally decided I was going to do that. And no sooner had I decided that than I go to a small group meeting from my church, people I've known for many years who helped me through the deepest parts of the river in the divorce. And I'm at this woman's house for Thanksgiving, and she says to me, you know, my. My daughter has called me. She works for a matchmaking firm in Southern California. She's called me. She's met this fabulous woman, and she's asking me if I know anyone, you know, that might be good for her to meet. And she says, would you mind if I gave your name to her? And I said, sure, go ahead. Thinking to myself that there is absolutely zero chance this is going to amount to anything. Absolutely zero. Maybe less than zero. But I say, yes, go ahead. And they end up contacting me. And I go through the whole process, and they interview me and the whole thing. We do all that. And then they give me two women to contact. They say, would you be interested in talking to either of these two women? One of them is the woman I'm going to marry. The other one was a woman up in. In San Francisco. And I actually chose the other woman to go see first. That. That's. It's an interesting piece of the story. I chose her first, and I went out to see her. You know, we had a good time together, but as you say, you know, we weren't soul mates. We. There was not gonna play there. So we both said, thanks very much, and, you know, we moved on. And then they came back to me and said, would you like to. To meet this other woman? And I said, yeah, I would. Now, she didn't have. She didn't have the perfect match. She's not a great skier and all of that, but she had a lot. There were a lot of big positives in her profile. So I said, yes, I would. Well, it took weeks. I mean, she's a. She was cfo of a company. So it took weeks before she had time because she was traveling and all in order for us to communicate. But when that happened, we finally got a chance to have a 15 minute call. And what was different, Elizabeth, was in that call. I didn't feel like it was one of those first date conversations. It was completely different. The feeling was different, the communication was different. It just, it felt different from the very beginning. And that was only 15 minutes. But in that 15 minutes I felt that I was talking wholly differently. And you know, the first phone call conversation you know that you've done, I've done it many, many times. This was different. And I felt it from the very beginning. Now after that, every call we made was on WhatsApp video because I like to see the person I'm talking to. And there has been no time in our conversation that I felt like I was having to make the conversation happen. And this will resonate with you on the very first point you made that 90% of the conversation is free flowing and easy. That's where I was and I hadn't been there with anyone else. [00:31:06] Speaker B: You can relate to that. I think that when things just feel easy and right, it's something to pay attention to. I think our society sends this message that marriage and that relationships are supposed to be hard. When you think about all the sitcoms and things like that, couples are always bickering and at least speaking for myself, I always had the story that men didn't quite get it in quotes, get it and that it was a woman's job to sort of tell them what to do and to make sure that they saw things that they weren't seeing. And that always felt hard to me. And I think I've actually changed my story on that, that there are a lot of men that get it. And when I meet somebody that gets me, it's immediately obvious it doesn't feel like a chore. [00:32:12] Speaker C: You know, you just said something really significant and that's also in your seven items. When someone gets you and everything that you represent. When someone gets that, they're not trying to change anything anymore. And I trained. They don't want you to be someone different. They know who you are. And I think that is a really, really big deal. And I had felt in other relationships that they wanted me to be somebody else. And you can't. I, I mean, I can't do that. Maybe other people can, but I cannot in this relationship. She has never asked me to be somebody else. This is not to say that we have the same perspectives on everything. Because that is clearly not true. We're not even the same politically, which I think is an interesting thing. [00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to press on that for a minute because I totally agree and I like arguing both sides of my story. Oh, and I also want to mention you have alluded to some of the qualities that I'm looking for in a partner a couple times, and I wrote this blog post recently about the 7 versus the 57 qualities I'm searching for in a man, and I came up with a list of 57 criteria based on my experience in my marriage and in dating and a lot of deep thinking about the things that I want from a partner. And I've concluded that there's really only seven of those that actually matter. I thought it might be helpful to just read those seven so I want 90% of our conversations to feel effortless. I want to learn something from my partner in nearly every conversation and to feel as if they learned something from me. I want to laugh, feel relaxed, and feel as if I have permission to let my hair down and be me. I don't actually want unconditional love. Rather, I want to feel challenged to continually earn my partner's affection by bringing my best to our relationship every day. And when I do bring my best, I want to feel certain that I am enough. When I am unable to bring my best, I want my partner to see that I am the best I can be for me today. And in those moments, I want them to want more from me, but to also accept me as I am and to believe that my good far outweighs my bad. I want to trust my partner's ethics without question and to believe that the hurt and disappointment I will most certainly experience from our partnership will be delivered unintentionally. And I want them to believe the same about me. And then lastly, I want to feel as if I have permission to share my unscripted thoughts and to occasionally f up royally. And I want to feel certain that if my unscripted thoughts and f ups cause confusion or hurt, that my partner will know that that was not my intention and welcome a clarifying conversation. And Al, thanks again for reading that. It's so meaningful to me that you have followed my blog through all these posts and I always appreciate your comments. [00:35:33] Speaker C: You are more than welcome. It always adds a lot to my to me. That's why I respond. [00:35:39] Speaker B: I appreciate that. I want to go back to what we were talking about with just accepting people for who they are. I have had the opportunity to meet someone recently who I actually don't want him to change. And that is a little counter to what I thought relationships were supposed to be like. And I was talking to a friend recently who is about my age and has been married for a long time and is kind of questioning what their next chapter looks like as a couple, or maybe not as a couple. And she said that when they went to marriage counseling, when they were going to get married in the church, just before they got married, the said to them that it's his experience that women marry men thinking that they're going to change and that men marry women thinking that they're going to stay exactly the same way. And that neither is true. And there's some gender stereotypes in there. I acknowledge that. But I think that that premise is regardless. And I always thought that I had to marry somebody that didn't meet all of my criteria and that maybe they would change eventually and see the light or that maybe I would grow to just accept those things that I didn't like. And it doesn't mean that I believe that I'm going to meet someone that is perfect. That is not my expectation. But I think when you meet someone that you can really accept who they are and see that they want to grow and that they want you to grow, that that is rare and also attainable. The other side of the story is the 8020 rule. Dr. Phil talks about this a lot, where no person is going to meet 100% of your criteria, and so you got to go for 80%. And I do see that side of the story, and I'm not sure that you actually need to buy into that story. What do you think, Al? [00:38:03] Speaker C: Well, I think that engaging in a relationship to think you're going to change the other person, I think leads to a series of bad missteps. You really have to look and see how does the person fit with me. Not. Not perfectly. No one's ever going to fit all the gears on the wheel. But do you fit enough of them so that you can say, they get, I'm going to go back to your seven. They get who I am, that they know when I have a bad day that they still love me, they still know I'm a good person underneath, those things really matter, and that you can accept the other person's perspective for what it is. And, you know, I think, you know, particularly in. In today's world, many of us, me included, sometimes get engaged in, you know, the. The other person has to agree with me. They have to be on the Same page. And that leads to a lot of grinding conflict, I think, because people need to be able to be who they are. And that's why I'm going to come back to the politics thing with the woman I'm going to marry. We are not the same. I'm more conservative than she is. She's more liberal than I. But we've agreed to always talk about the issues without trying to convince the other person. So I want to hear her perspective. She wants to hear mine. It doesn't mean that she's going to necessarily agree with mine, but she'll hear it. And I may not agree with hers, but I'll hear it. And I think taking the trying to convince the other person out of play has made that work. [00:39:56] Speaker B: I think that is really important. I want to underscore that. And that is actually when I knew that I needed to leave my marriage. When I felt like I was speaking a different language, when I thought I was clearly communicating my desires and frustrations and that he wasn't hearing those and vice versa, and that the intent of the words that I was sharing and did not come across in the way that I intended. When I got to that point, that's when I knew I needed to leave. And now I have men in my life who don't agree with me, same as you. And sometimes I say things that come out in the way that I definitely do not intend them to, and I can trust that they will tell me if something is unclear or if something I said felt insulting or hurtful or just needed to be restated. And that's really all that matters. [00:41:07] Speaker C: I mean, if. If you've gotten to that point, Elizabeth, that is open communication. I mean, that is communication without fear. And, I mean, I had reached the point in my marriage where communication came with fear. I mean, what's the response going to be? And in this case, we have communication without fear. If I'm not mistaken. That's what you just said. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. [00:41:35] Speaker C: That's pretty powerful. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Thank you. So what advice do you have for people who are determining whether to leave their marriage? [00:41:47] Speaker C: Wow. That. That is a. A challenging question. And I mean, I hate to be a therapist here, but I think if. If someone is thinking that. Need to look back to the good part of your marriage, not the part you're in today, but the good part, and say, what has changed since? And what. What piece of that do I have? What piece of that does my partner have? And is it possible to recognize, you know, where both of us had. Have led the relationship astray and to step backward to a place where we can begin anew. There. Obviously there's lots of hurts, obviously there's lots of difficulties. But you can only go back there if you are able to say to yourself, what have I contributed to the relationship falling apart? What have I done and what have they done? And how can we knock those walls down to go back? So I would think that you shouldn't just go because anyone who thinks it's going to be easy is kidding themselves. It's not. And it's not a decision to be taken lightly. And it should be one that you take with consideration for the person you said I do too, however many years ago. [00:43:21] Speaker B: I agree with that. And I will add that for me, I often am afraid to make a change because I know that I can handle the status quo. I fall into this with my health too. When I need to make a change to improve my health, I'm nervous that making that change is going to make things worse. And even though I'm frustrated with my status quo, the fear of it getting worse is often greater than the full of the hope that it might get better. And every time that I make a decision because I'm afraid of getting worse, I'm sorry that I make a decision from that premise. And to your point, it is not easy. It is not easy to come home to an empty home. It is not easy to sleep in a bed by yourself when you have slept with another person for 21 years. There's all sorts of research around how people are not built to sleep solo. Although there's some other side to that story too. I happened to have been in a two year relationship with a man who cannot sleep with another person in the same bed. So, you know, yeah, to each their own. But indeed, but for me, that was hard for me. And it is hard to feel like you may never meet someone. And I am really glad that I took that leap. And I am not sure where love is going to take me in the future. But I'm clear that it's a better path than what I was on before. [00:45:10] Speaker C: I'm certain it is because I hear your voice differently than I have in the past. And I think that's the reason. I think one of the things to be open to is to a relationship that may, on the surface, may seem to make no sense. Never in my life did I think I would look for a relationship out of Southern California. Not in a million years of Sundays. But when that came to me, when it finally came to me, I was Open to it. And, you know, there's many things you have to work through with distance, but we're able to do all that. But I didn't just cut it off because I thought the potential was there for something really special. For me, it was seeing something and saying, you know, okay, I'm going to ride this relationship, because I think there's something more here, even though on the surface it makes no sense at all. [00:46:14] Speaker B: And you'll appreciate this, Al, because we're both skiers. That's how we met each other, right? And. And I always held the belief that I would not miss a powder day for a man. [00:46:29] Speaker C: I get it, I get it. [00:46:32] Speaker B: And don't get me wrong, I really like powder days. And I especially like powder days with people I enjoy spending time with. And if they happen to be men that I'm romantically interested in, that's really nice. And I was in a two year relationship with a man who did not ski. And I found myself on a Sunday, 18 inch powder day when the Broncos were playing in a really big game that was very important to him. I found myself genuinely wanting to stay indoors and watch that game with him rather than sitting ski 18 inch powder day. I never, I mean, you know me well enough to know that that is something I did not foresee. And when things are right, that stuff becomes insignificant. [00:47:25] Speaker C: You know, that was, that was part of the story that you told in, in your, your posting that, that really resonated with me because, you know, I'd always been, you know, you got, they've got to be a skier, you know, they've got to be a hiker, they've got to do all of this. And meanwhile all the other stuff that makes up a relationship was underneath that. And I can go ski, you know, whenever the snow is good and when there's an 18 inch dump, I will probably be out there. I do have to say that. But I think that what it spoke to was seeing the relationship as a whole. That that's what that story spoke to for me, seeing the relationship as a whole. That sometimes you do things that aren't your favorite and sometimes they'll do things that aren't their favorite. And you, you told that story beautifully. That's what I thought. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Oh, well, thank you. And I'll also tell a more recent story, which is I'm in a relationship with a guy who does ski now. And I was telling him that I learned that skiing isn't that important to me. And he looked me straight in the eye and said, just don't know if I can get there. And I thought, yeah, that's part of why I really like you. So who knows? But you'll also appreciate this. My dad is a huge skier. And Al also skis with my dad. And my dad met this guy recently and he's my friend who I'm in a relationship with. Started talking about Revelstoke, which for skiers, if you ski at Revelstoke, it kind of gives you an instant amount of credibility. And my dad's eyes perked up and he's mentioned maybe 10 times like, I'm glad that that guy skis. [00:49:33] Speaker C: Wow, that. Now that's funny. Has your dad skied Revelstoke? [00:49:39] Speaker B: You know, he has not skied Revelstoke. He's gone heli skiing near there, but has not skied Revelstoke. [00:49:46] Speaker C: Yeah, so he's fired up now. So. But what's interesting, you know, and you said you had, you know, your, your relationship had, had moved on, but it seems to me that you did what you would, you know, when you entered the other relationship, what you hope you would. You had learned a lot from that relationship. You, you brought a lot forward from there. [00:50:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. I would not have been open to this current relationship had I had not had the previous one. [00:50:19] Speaker C: I would say that for me, that, that is the same because, you know, I've been able to, to bounce the experiences around in such a way that, you know, I could see how, why it was important that certain things happen in the relationship that maybe I didn't see before. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe the last thing that I'll share today is that this experience has also made me realize that I don't actually care if relationships are forever anymore. That two year relationship that I've been mentioning, I'm 100% sure that that was a stepping stone to something else. And the man that I was in that two year relationship with is going to be a part of my life forever, as is my ex husband. Actually, this is kind of funny. So my parents were out in Montana visiting me a couple weeks ago, and we spent the first night going to a 50th birthday party for the man that I was in that two year relationship with. We spent the second night going to dinner with my ex husband to celebrate his recent success. And he's opening up a new restaurant in Helena, Montana. And then we spent the third night meeting this new guy. And my dad was kind of like, wow, this is a lot. [00:51:50] Speaker C: But Elizabeth, I can't keep up with this, [00:51:56] Speaker B: but I am so grateful that all those people were and are still in my life. And I feel certain that they're all going to be in my life in some way, shape or form. And I don't actually care if that form changes. This current relationship that I'm in might be a stepping stone to the next thing for both of us. I don't know and I don't care. [00:52:26] Speaker C: You know, and that is that thought that what you said, that don't care is really important because it takes the, the conditions off. You know, you're going to be able to play the relationship for what it is and where, where, where it ultimately will go, but you're not trying to drag it one direction or the other. [00:52:49] Speaker B: Right. And I think that that's actually the biggest shift that I've made is I've stopped living my life because I felt obligated to uphold a commitment and started living my life based on what feels right and expecting the people who are in relationships with me to do the same and to realize that you can renegotiate commitments when things change. [00:53:20] Speaker C: Right. That there's enough respect in the relationship for you to negotiate things of that nature. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Yes. Well, Al, you've shared a lot of wisdom today. Is there any thought that you want to share with our listeners that you haven't shared? [00:53:39] Speaker C: You know, the. My final thought would be always be open to the possibilities, even if it doesn't make sense, because somewhere out there is the person you need to meet, and they may not come in the box that you expect would underscore that. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Well, Al, thank you so much for being my friend, for listening to imperfectly honest and reading imperfectly honest blog posts and just being a genuinely interesting human. I am so happy that you have found someone that will make you an even better human, which seems hard to even fathom that that's possible. And I can't wait to meet her because if she's good enough for you, she's got to be amazing. [00:54:37] Speaker C: She's. She's a. She's a great woman. And, and you will meet her sometime this winter. You will meet her. And she's helping me be a better person in so many different ways. I would just say as, as we go to get off, Elizabeth, I want to say all of those same things back to you. You know, it's one of the beauties of relationships that you and I, you and I met through someone else. And how would I ever have known that the relationship would get here? That the discussion we had on a chairlift would ultimately lead to so much more. And I think that's the being open to different things and different people. I mean, that worked for you and I from 73 to. At my age, to whatever your age is. And I've learned not to ask. [00:55:30] Speaker B: I'm 45. You can ask me. Okay. Yeah. [00:55:38] Speaker C: Well. [00:55:39] Speaker B: And to our point earlier, when things feel right, they're just right. I do remember the first day that we skied together, thinking I was meant to meet this person. And I still think that. So thanks for coming into my life. [00:55:54] Speaker C: Same here. I'll never forget it. I forget what day it was, but I'll never forget a discussion we had going up the lift 5. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Do you want to just tell the story on that? [00:56:07] Speaker C: We were talking about how some people. People don't listen when you talk, that they are always interested in. You know, they're thinking about what they're going to say instead of hearing what. What you have to say. And I had just been with some people who were doing exactly that. It was like, wow, this person gets how it feels to be in that kind of relationship where someone's talking at you, not with you. That. That one put a stick in the ground for me. [00:56:45] Speaker B: That is a good lesson. All right. Elle, this was so lovely. Thank you again and thank. [00:56:51] Speaker C: Thank you for this fabulous opportunity. Elizabeth. It has been. It has been a wonderful part of my day. [00:57:03] Speaker B: Sam.